The Search for the Ultimate Fish Food

[star_rider]

water is critical in the digestion and absorption of food.
especially true with proteins.
I do get the reasoning tho re: dilution
just a thought dillute prior to consumption or soon after either way you need the water to process.

just a thought

 

[Chiisai]

" I just can't find what I'm looking for which is an ingredient list"

Not seeing the forest for the trees?

I will tell you that the seafood-1 category, in alphabetical order, includes but is not limited to black cod, cod, halibut, herring, salmon, plus several others.
I will also tell you that the seafood-2 category, in alphabetical order, includes but is not limited to clams, krill, octopus, rockfish, several types of various fish eggs, shrimp, squid, plus several others.

The vitamin additive that I add in, as formulated by the Tropical Fish Nutritionalist, includes but is not limited to Vitamins A, B-12, D, B-1, B-2, B-6, C, E, Niacinamide, Calcium, Biotin, Folic Acid, Iron, Iodine, Zinc, Phosphorus, Magnesium, Copper, Manganese, Potassium, Choline, Inositol, Rutin, PABA, Citrus Bioflavonoid Complex, Betaine HCL, Hesperidin Complex, Desiccated Liver, L-Lysine HCL and d-alpha Tocopheryl Succinate

My only issue with this ingredient list is that he uses the groups. This tells me that the food is not consitent in ingredients. ALthough there is definatley merit in food manufacturer that uses fresh food. I get the impression his food is made out of whatever he had access to that day. I am sure all of the food is nutritious but the lack of consistency is what might drive some folks away.

On a side note I was talking to someone I associate with who now is a Marine Biologist. Her thoughts on the whole fish food was this. "Just about any fish food you can buy is by far more nutritious then what the fish would recieve in the wild." She went on to tell me that in the wild many fish might go for days without finding anything to eat(mostly carnivours). Most fish foods that are half decent are de facto healtheir for the fish then its natural habitat. Thus why most Captive species look far superior in color and form then WC. I suspect this might not hold as true for veggie loving fish. But thought I would add that lil tidbit in. For the sake of full disclosure she also told me if I wanted the best for my fish.. take them back to south america :laughhard: 

 

[Anthony J.]

Well, as true as some of that is,  specifically not eating for periods of time,  when a carnivorous fish does eat, because its a carnivore,  it gets matter from which that meal ate, sometimes other fish, shrimps, fruit, veggies, algae, microscopic organisms etc. Being at the top of the food chain means, you don't need to eat the health foods, your pray is all ready saturated in the vitamins from them. I recall a few years back, pretty sure it was Don Conkel, could be Rusty Wessel, I can't remember,  talking about the amount of vegetable matter in a carnivorous cichlids gut analysis. So, even if they only eat, lets say for the sake of naturalism,  1 species of live bearer they are found living with. Well, such an exclusive diet would cause deficiencies.  But, the live bearer has a very broad diet, from insects, to, algea, and all sorts of other foods. So the carnivores meal today, could be Xiphophurus Montezuma with a gut full of algae,  in two days, another ones might be full of mango.

also, in my experiance, w/c fishes lose colors when they transition to captive life, or the next generation may be without certain traits at all (Hemigrammus rodwayi) comes to mind. Because no matter how diverse the food we feed is, nothing can match the diversity, or specifications, that come from the habitat which the fish evolved within to become its species. Almost all fish have common ancestry.  Like cichlids to damsels. Have you ever seen clown fish display, lay eggs, defend nest etc? It's like watching bright orange an white cichlids. Each and every cichlid evolved ti fit into a niche within there system, and they did that by many years of breeding, to breed specimens must be strong and healthy (adiet, and exercise are key to health) or the act of spawning and courting alone could cause the parents to be too weak to defend the eggs and they would get eaten. The species would die off, almost all cichlids have population doubling time of 6-18 months according to the iucn lists I have seen. so I can't help but assume your friend either didn't think the answer to the question trough, or gave you a false answer.

 

[DMD123]

also, in my experiance, w/c fishes lose colors when they transition to captive life, or the next generation may be without certain traits at all (Hemigrammus rodwayi) comes to mind. Because no matter how diverse the food we feed is, nothing can match the diversity, or specifications, that come from the habitat which the fish evolved within to become its species.

I think one element missing is real sunlight. An example that comes to mind, I remember seeing pictures of wild caught red devils for instance that have such deep dark red's that I have never seen in captive fish.

 

[Chiisai]

I respect your opinion Anthony but agree with my friend. Some fish might do better in captivity, but this is largely due to synthetic enviroment. You and I have fish tanks that are artificially better then nature. We quarintine new or sick fish, we have pumps and filters to keep up water quality and a horde of chemicals and test kits to keep water optimal. Keeping a fish healthy doesnt mean that its the best for them. It simply means we as the Human species has found a way to support life on a smaller, albeit artificial scale. You could be in a prison for the rest of your life in solitary confinement. You wouldn't be tempted to do drugs, drink, get in fights, or be exposed to very little if any illnesses. This doesnt mean iimprisonment is better for you. The coloration issue I suspect is in fact due to lighting like DMD suggests(Vitamin K, and VItamin D deficient).

 I could go on to say if you or I was bound to the confines of our homes for the rest of our lives that wouldnt be considered healthy would it? Keeping fish in glass acrylic container thats prolly 1/1000 of their naturally inclined territory. Now that is a bit of far stretch since fish dont have the cognative ability to understand their "imprisonment" but idea is the same.  

Regarding species dieing off from not being strong enough...

 That is natures way of ensuring strong and healthy bloodlines. If we in the hobby are breeding and maintaining weak specimens then we are not doing the breed any favors. The only exception to this is species who are endangered due to man made causes. As I feel personally we should seek to keep any endangered species from going extinct. This barring the idea the species would not be able to populate back in nature ever again(Natural habitat completely destroyed). Maintaining a species that can only be kept in captivity isnt really saving the species IMHO.

Anyways thats my though process... rebuttle is certainly welcomed!

 

[Anthony J.]

I respect your opinion Anthony but agree with my friend. Some fish might do better in captivity, but this is largely due to synthetic enviroment. You and I have fish tanks that are artificially better then nature. We quarintine new or sick fish, we have pumps and filters to keep up water quality and a horde of chemicals and test kits to keep water optimal. Keeping a fish healthy doesnt mean that its the best for them. It simply means we as the Human species has found a way to support life on a smaller, albeit artificial scale. You could be in a prison for the rest of your life in solitary confinement. You wouldn't be tempted to do drugs, drink, get in fights, or be exposed to very little if any illnesses. This doesnt mean iimprisonment is better for you. The coloration issue I suspect is in fact due to lighting like DMD suggests(Vitamin K, and VItamin D deficient).

 I could go on to say if you or I was bound to the confines of our homes for the rest of our lives that wouldnt be considered healthy would it? Keeping fish in glass acrylic container thats prolly 1/1000 of their naturally inclined territory. Now that is a bit of far stretch since fish dont have the cognative ability to understand their "imprisonment" but idea is the same.  

Regarding species dieing off from not being strong enough...

 That is natures way of ensuring strong and healthy bloodlines. If we in the hobby are breeding and maintaining weak specimens then we are not doing the breed any favors. The only exception to this is species who are endangered due to man made causes. As I feel personally we should seek to keep any endangered species from going extinct. This barring the idea the species would not be able to populate back in nature ever again(Natural habitat completely destroyed). Maintaining a species that can only be kept in captivity isnt really saving the species IMHO.

Anyways thats my though process... rebuttle is certainly welcomed!

The top two paragraphs, where do they fit in to any of this? I never said that it was better or healthier. In or out of captivity, I stated that there were examples to prove some fish have better coloration in the wild due to any number of factors. Then I posted an example, with the golden tetra.

In the next paragraphs I went on to explain that if, any grouping, family, or population of fish in the wild were to go through even the toughest of times, in reference to a limited diet, or specific needs of any of these "niche" fish, the survivors would be able to double the population in most cases, in between 6 and 18 months as per the iucn lists..


 "Just about any fish food you can buy is by far more nutritious then what the fish would recieve in the wild." 

This is where your friend is wrong, and this was the point I was arguing, as you will see from the heading of my argument, " as true as dome of that is".

If you are going to back this statement, and your friend is a marine biologist, I ask for any documentation supporting this theory. Any b at all, shouldn't be difficult for a marine biologist, or maybe a link, a report, any evidence that says this is accurate. Youbwill find very quickly a few things, 1st if there's no pictures, it didn't happen. And 2 ANY statement most have either plenty of logic and at minimum a decent arguable point, and/or scientific or "expert on the topic" reports, again with plenty of citations, data, and inarguable information or evidence to back it. So, I challenge your friend, or you or anyone to produce information supporting and back8ng the above quoted statement. I will repost


 "Just about any fish food you can buy is by far more nutritious then what the fish would recieve in the wild." 

This^^^

Chiisai, please reread my comments a few times so you can deliver a more suitable argument, I am not trying to sound like a jerk I promise, but your response tells me either you didn't read my posy, or for didn't understand it.

 

[Chiisai]

Chiisai, please reread my comments a few times so you can deliver a more suitable argument, I am not trying to sound like a jerk I promise,  but your response tells me either you didn't read my posy, or for didn't understand it.

It made sense when I wrote it, but looking back over your post looks like I must have had something else on the mind. I will ask my friend if she has some studies she can give links to. BTW did you ever find that RD links? Been skimming through MFK for a few days now and cant find any food related topics from RD. Let alone food topics that have anything more then "my fish look better when I feed xxx." After reading through all these posts I am going to be halting my use of Kikari Bio Gold once I have used it all up. So far its a toss up for between Hikari Massivore and maybe breaking up the peices? Or trying the "Xtreme" brand I have been reading about on MFK. I am just looking for better ingredients in a fish food then NLS or most of Hikari foods offer. Also reading alot of reviews of fish "spitting out" NLS or not eating it at all. I am not an expert but my fish have favorites but I have never seen them spit out anything but "mini" pellets(because smaller pellets are much harder then larger ones I am told). I still dont like the "meals" not being "whole" but will have to settle until the market has more to offer.

Xtreme "PeeWee"
Krill Meal, Herring Meal, Green Pea, Fish Meal, Shrimp Meal, Squid Meal, Rice Meal, Spirulina blue-green algae, Brewers Dried Yeast, Paprika, Lecithin, Marigold Extract, Fish Oil, ,Salt, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, di-Alph Tocopheryl Acetate(Vitamin E Supplement), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin, Niacin, Caldium Pantothenate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex(source of Vitamin K activity), Folic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Manganese Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Iron Proteinate, Cobalt Proteinate, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Canthaxanthin, Astaxanthin, Beta Carotene

Protein: (min) 38.0%
Fat: (min) 5.0%
Fiber: (max) 4.5%
Moisture: (max) 10%

 

[DMD123]

I use many different brands and the one thing that I can say is that NLS does use very high quality ingredients. As to the 'whole' being used before a meal really does not apply to the NLS because with krill and herring the whole animal is used. I would be more concerned with this in fish meals. This is a high quality product, my only reason for mixing is my own personal feeling of having a high vegetarian group of fish. Ive done the research and even fed NLS exclusive for a while but my group seems to do better with more plant based foods in their diet.

 

[lloyd378]

I want to start by saying I haven't read everyone else's thoughts, as they don't pertain to what I'm going to share( my experience) ....


So to update everyone, I ordered about $50 dollars worth of bulk southern delight this morning.   Reason being, I went to madness' house last night to pick up my new regani...., I have been to his place numerous times over the last year. His fish always look great and tanks are always impeccably clean. With that being said, his fish looked even nicer than normal .  I attribute this to his use of southern delight food.  Until my bulk food arrives, my fish will continue to eat the nls 6mm floating, the aqueon 3mm slow sinking , and frOzen krill.... I'm excited to add this new food to the mix as I have seen the results first hand, and the online research/ websites are impressive.

 

[DMD123]

I have not seen madness fish in a while now.... if they look even better I guess I would be tempted to order some to try also. But I am bothered by the use of corn and chicken by products in this food. These are two items I feel should not be in the food. Many of the other ingredients I understand due to needing a binder and protein source. Let us know what you think of it when you start using it Lloyd.

 

[lloyd378]

I have not seen madness fish in a while now.... if they look even better I guess I would be tempted to order some to try also. But I am bothered by the use of corn and chicken by products in this food. These are two items I feel should not be in the food. Many of the other ingredients I understand due to needing a binder and protein source. Let us know what you think of it when you start using it Lloyd.

I will! It won't be the only new food I feed, as I also have some flowerhorn food on the way for my baby horns

 

[DMD123]

I added Hikari Cichlid Excel and Bio-Gold to my mix a while back and results are fine. I still have NLS and Dainichi in the mix also. Since adding the Hikari I have noticed a fine fish food powder line (kind of like a ring in a bathtub) and surface scum that I never really noticed before. I am going to try a straight NLS mix next week and see if my theory is right.

 

[DMD123]

I went back and looked at the ingredients and the Large Cichlid pellets do not list corn or chicken by products. This has made me reconsider its use.

 

[DMD123]

Just when I thought I was giving up on Omega One they go and change their web site and add my fish on their site! LOL! Yes its a Pearsei.

If I didnt know better, I would think this was an old photo of Mo Devlin's Pearsei. His name ironically was associated with Xtreme foods. So an Xtreme food fed Pearsei on the Omega One site?  : 

 

[Madness]

I wonder if Mo knows?

 

[DMD123]

I am totally stabbing a guess his fish but I could be wrong.

 

[Anthony J.]

"I am just looking for better ingredients in a fish food then NLS or most of Hikari foods offer. Also reading alot of reviews of fish "spitting out" NLS or not eating it at all. I am not an expert but my fish have favorites but I have never seen them spit out anything but "mini" pellets"

I think DMD answered the "better ingredients in a food then nls"

As far as spitting goes, often times when a pellet as dense as nls is introduced, the fish aren't used to it, at least that has been my experience. For fish having favorites, cut up some hot dogs into pellet sized pieces, and watch your fish develop a new favorite. But we all know the nutritional value of hot dogs.

As far as xtreame, its ingredients are not horrible, but in a financial pinch a few years ago I bought some as I felt it was better quality then many others as far as ingredients go. Fish liked it, and it served its purpose. But, I noticed half way through the container, the bottom third of what was left was powder, it was pretty brittle, and had broken down easily. Just an experience that I have with one type.

 

[Anthony J.]

I am totally stabbing a guess his fish but I could be wrong.

looks like Mo Devlins to me, along with the picture quality.

 

[Betty]

I wonder if Mo knows?

It's an entry in a previous year's photo contest.  Looks like he's got an entry in each year. (His name is credited in each photo.)  His pics are always awesome!

 

[DMD123]

The winner gets like a years supply of Omega One