The Search for the Ultimate Fish Food
- Thread starter cichlid-gal
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cichlid-gal
New Member
No I'm not seeing the forest as there is nothing to see but a bunch of statements made by "Ed" about his food...there is nothing to back up what he is saying as he is not putting anything on his labels but generalizations. It reminds me of many weight loss pills that promise the moon and have all this special stuff in them but when push comes to shove its not what you think it is and sometimes there is harmful stuff in them but because they have "lumped" ingredients together the harmful stuff is hidden.plaamoo said:
How are we to know based on what that food lists as ingredients what is really in it. The page where Ed chats about what he puts in his food and where he sells his food and lists ingredients are two separate pages...and he doesn't even follow through with his promise to list the number one ingredient. Plaamoo...someone can make a lot of claims about their stuff but until they put it out there in writing it is simply their word and because I do not know Ed his word has no meaning to me. Now, your word, well, as I get to know you better it will either have meaning or not depending on how we handle ourselves. I am not defensive about the foods I feed. Tear them up if you so chose. I'm looking to see if there is a really great food out there for our fishes. That's my goal. I know my foods have downfalls that's why I started this topic.
I am glad that people are using the Natural Tropical Fish Food product and are happy but until I see what is in it in writing I will not even give that food a 2nd look. I'm sorry if that bothers you...my choice just as it is yours to feed that food.
Anthony J.
New Member
Agreed, I will testify that some of my fish were very hesitant, and wanted nothing to do with NLS when I first made the switch a few years ago, particularly my T. Meeki. But, my children will munch on candy all day if I let them, and would have nothing to do with veggies if it was optional.dwarfpike said:
dwarfpike
Well-Known Member
I didn't mean that as a shot at NLS btw. I know it has that reputation of fish not eating it, but I don't have a soft heart when it comes to switching fish off bad foods. Anyone who has tried to get wild caught pike cichlids onto prepared foods can't be. I just haven't tried NLS due to it's high protein levels, but that site gave me one with a lower percentage to look for now though so if I if I can track it down, I certainly want to try it out. :spoton:
I think most people who have issues getting fish to eat NLS might be due to using too large a pellet. NLS is pretty dense compared to other brands. If you get a NLS pellet that is comparable in size to what you had been using from another brand you may find that it is rejected. Go smaller and it usually is taken.
I have a large (13") Pearsei and Red Hook Silver Dollars (7") and they do fine with the 4.5mm floating, though they greedily take the 7.5mm ones but just end up making a huge mess of them grinding them down to try and eat.
I have a large (13") Pearsei and Red Hook Silver Dollars (7") and they do fine with the 4.5mm floating, though they greedily take the 7.5mm ones but just end up making a huge mess of them grinding them down to try and eat.
"I'm sorry if that bothers you"
Not at all. Please don't misunderstand me. Our brains just process info differently. All those "meals" are a smokescreen. You don't know what they really consist of. Ed's list of ingredients, along with highly respected recommendations were more than enough for me to give it a try.
Not at all. Please don't misunderstand me. Our brains just process info differently. All those "meals" are a smokescreen. You don't know what they really consist of. Ed's list of ingredients, along with highly respected recommendations were more than enough for me to give it a try.
cichlid-gal
New Member
Here's the wiki article on "fish meal"...some good reading here too. I'm learning a lot here...so all is good Plaamoo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_meal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_meal
A
Anonymous
Guest
The only negative remark I find with Hikari Massivor Pellets is it has synthetic vitamin K. I've used this product consistently with large predators. Since I've converted my tanks to planted housing smaller fish I still break off little bits of the pellet & feed my dwarf cichlids. They like it a lot! What do you guys think of this product? What I have read Massivor Pellets contain 10% more protein than NLS products.
Actually I was quite intrigued by his arguments. I like the fact his product is made from human grade and not pet grade. I believe this would lower the amount of accepted preservatives used, if I understand correctly. A low starch content also is good. His pricing is not that bad, might consider ordering a small batch of pellets to try.plaamoo said:
This stuff generally gets good reviews. This used to be the only real choice for large predatory fish. Now NLS makes a good Mega Fish Formula to compete. My gripe with this product (Massivore) is how it makes the water stink.... why does it do that?fishNAbowl said:
Right now I am using the Hikari Sinking Carnivore which I believe is just massivore but in small form. My bichirs love this stuff! But when they get big enough I will try the NLS Mega on them. cant stand the stinky water :superpuke:
Can you provide some links? I have been searching the last few days can cant find anything but conjecture and opinions.Anthony J. said:
Well I could be wrong but... a main ingredient is Seaweed. MK-4(Vitamin K) is usually found in plants with high photosynthesis. Seaweed is actually big in the health food industry just for that reason as well as Vitamin CfishNAbowl said:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2617/2
At the moment I am feeding my SA cichlids a mix
Hikari Cichlid Gold
White Fish Meal, Wheat Flour, Wheat Germ Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Soybean Meal, Shrimp Meal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Carotene, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Choline Chloride, D-activated Animal Sterol, Folic Acid, Menadione, Zinc Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Salt, Ferrous Chloride, Copper Sulfate, Cobalt Sulfate, Aluminum Sulfate, Magnesium Sulfate.
Crude Protein min. 40% Min. crude fat min. 4% Crude Fiber max. 4% Moisture max. 9% Max Ash 12%
Kens veggie flake(I make cubes out of it)
seaweed, spirulina, carrots, squash, spinach. Vegetable oils, soy meal, yeast, wheat flour, vitamin & mineral supplement. Asorbic acid (source of vitamin c). Natural and some artificial coloring. Dried bacillus subtilis fermentation product, dried bacillus licheniformis fermentation
Guaranteed analysis: crude protein 35.0% min., crude fat 7.0% min., crude fiber 7.0% max., moisture 8.0% max., all natural ingredients, except for some artificial coloring. No preservatives.
As well as Hikari Frozen Blood worm, Frozen tubifex worms, Frozen Krill
This is not including the occasional guppy, platy, or betta cull. As well as the occasional goldfish to keep the agression in my dovii
I feed New Life Spectrum cichlid 1mm sinking pellets and Thera A large fish 3mm sinking pellets. I buy the 5lb. buckets which last a very long time. Link to their site: New Life International
Occasionally I feed some frozen mysis or brine shrimp as well as a few veggies. Plecos get nls and some canned french style green beans, usually Del Monte or whatever brand I can find on the shelf that is unsalted.
Occasionally I feed some frozen mysis or brine shrimp as well as a few veggies. Plecos get nls and some canned french style green beans, usually Del Monte or whatever brand I can find on the shelf that is unsalted.
Anthony J.
New Member
I absolutely, but my lack of time restricts...... when I was first researching it, I had this issue too. And I can follow the same route again, and post my findings here, although it will probably take me a few days due to 12-14 hour work days. So I'm very busy when I get off with10 aquariums, and my family. I can however, tell you what I did. Go to MFK, find RD, and search his posts. Over the last many years, he has provided a plethora of information, typically cited, just as you saw from the hikari email exchange. This is the best I can do right now.Chiisai said:
cichlid-gal
New Member
FishNAbowl I have not had the need to feed large meat based products. I do use the Hikari Sinking Massivore Discs for my Axolotls. And like DMD shared the smell can be an issue but my axi's love them.fishNAbowl said:
Chiisai the Ken's veggie flake ingredients look good enough to put on a plate...really. I know a lot of folks feed Ken's and his foods seem to use earthworm in them alot. Is there any information out there on using earthworm as a protein source for fish? I would assume that in the wild fish eat worms where and when available but it would interesting to see more information on this topic.Chiisai said:
Just for review purposes:earthfish said:
Cobalt Premium Cichlid Food Ingredients:
Salmon Fish Meal, Dried Yeast, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Shrimp Meal, Freeze Dried Plankton, Freeze Dried Krill, Dried Spirulina, Dried Kelp, Fish Oil, Lecithin, Dried Brine Shrimp, Egg Powder, Garlic Powder, Earthworm Powder, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin B1 Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Biotin, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of stabilized Vitamin C), Beta-Glucan, Spray Dried Egg, Calcium Carbonate, Vitamin E Supplement, D1 Calcium Pantothenate, Niacin, D-Biotin, Riboflavin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus licheniformis Fermentation Product, Methionine and Natural Coloring
Betty...I'm intrigued by the french style green beans as another veggie source. Do you think it would be safe to add a few to my big cichlid tank once in a while...I have a lot of wood and such .. if pieces were to get stuck somewhere I would assume the pleco in the tank would find them and clean them up?Betty said:I feed New Life Spectrum cichlid 1mm sinking pellets and Thera A large fish 3mm sinking pellets. I buy the 5lb. buckets which last a very long time. Link to their site: New Life International
Occasionally I feed some frozen mysis or brine shrimp as well as a few veggies. Plecos get nls and some canned french style green beans, usually Del Monte or whatever brand I can find on the shelf that is unsalted.
Anthony J.
New Member
I would also like to add, that looking for the "best food" is often easier to do when you look at it from a process of eliminating the worst foods and there's several things that you can look for to do this.
For me some of the things I look for as a bad ingredient are first and for most, corn, which have very little nutritional value, and in my understanding, is the absolute most commonly used filler in any "cheaply, or poorly made" food product. Another two I am not fond of are soy and yeast as these two are often used boost protein levels, and act as fillers, but this protein is not very digestable. Finally, any land animal, no matter what part it is used. The biggest 3 for me are corn, land animals, and soy. Just eliminating any food from the list of possibly "good food", and putting them into the "bad food" category will narrow out about 1/2-3/4 of marketed fish foods.
From there I look at the way the most desirable ingredients are labeled, trying to avoid the word "meal" after any of these ingredients, especially if it is one of the top 5 ingredients. By doing this, we don't necessarily need to remove them from the current list, but perhaps put them in a medium, or "ok" category.
Finally, delivery. While a dense pellet is naturally going to be more nutrient rich, due to the fact that obviously more ingredients were put into each pellet, and since we have eliminated 90+ percent of foods we have to look at this as a sign of lots of good ingredients crammed into each pellet. While flakes have I higher obsorption rate then pellets, I have seen dome company's trying to cut down on this. For example, omega 1 flakes have many small granules on each flake. These granules are denser then the "flaky" part of the flake, meaning more ingredients in each flake. Also, very light weight, and course pellets are going to retain more water faster then a dense one. Which means the stomach of the fish will be more full, with less nutrients, as tank water isn't nutritious. The same can be said for gel foods, if we have 50% protein, but are mixing 1 part highly nutritional food, to 4 parts water the nutritional value of the food must be cut in fourths, because of dilution. Best example I can give of this is if it is dinner time, and my children won't eat their peas, so I stick 2 peas into each spot in an ice tray, and pop out the desired amount of peas, lets say 20, my children's stomach will be full of water from eating 10 ice cubes, but they got the peas right? Well yes, but peas aren't the only thing on the menu, and how much more nutrients could we have fit in their stomachs, if we didn't have 10 cubes of water in there? What happens is the stomach is physically full, but its full of very little nutrition, and a lot of water.
I hope this makes sense, its my method for choosing the food I do. And, I'm pretty sure, that I have expressed all of this in an easy to understand, yet logical and informative way.
For me some of the things I look for as a bad ingredient are first and for most, corn, which have very little nutritional value, and in my understanding, is the absolute most commonly used filler in any "cheaply, or poorly made" food product. Another two I am not fond of are soy and yeast as these two are often used boost protein levels, and act as fillers, but this protein is not very digestable. Finally, any land animal, no matter what part it is used. The biggest 3 for me are corn, land animals, and soy. Just eliminating any food from the list of possibly "good food", and putting them into the "bad food" category will narrow out about 1/2-3/4 of marketed fish foods.
From there I look at the way the most desirable ingredients are labeled, trying to avoid the word "meal" after any of these ingredients, especially if it is one of the top 5 ingredients. By doing this, we don't necessarily need to remove them from the current list, but perhaps put them in a medium, or "ok" category.
Finally, delivery. While a dense pellet is naturally going to be more nutrient rich, due to the fact that obviously more ingredients were put into each pellet, and since we have eliminated 90+ percent of foods we have to look at this as a sign of lots of good ingredients crammed into each pellet. While flakes have I higher obsorption rate then pellets, I have seen dome company's trying to cut down on this. For example, omega 1 flakes have many small granules on each flake. These granules are denser then the "flaky" part of the flake, meaning more ingredients in each flake. Also, very light weight, and course pellets are going to retain more water faster then a dense one. Which means the stomach of the fish will be more full, with less nutrients, as tank water isn't nutritious. The same can be said for gel foods, if we have 50% protein, but are mixing 1 part highly nutritional food, to 4 parts water the nutritional value of the food must be cut in fourths, because of dilution. Best example I can give of this is if it is dinner time, and my children won't eat their peas, so I stick 2 peas into each spot in an ice tray, and pop out the desired amount of peas, lets say 20, my children's stomach will be full of water from eating 10 ice cubes, but they got the peas right? Well yes, but peas aren't the only thing on the menu, and how much more nutrients could we have fit in their stomachs, if we didn't have 10 cubes of water in there? What happens is the stomach is physically full, but its full of very little nutrition, and a lot of water.
I hope this makes sense, its my method for choosing the food I do. And, I'm pretty sure, that I have expressed all of this in an easy to understand, yet logical and informative way.
Anthony, it makes sense to me.
Chiisai, if you'd like a small sample of nls, I can give you some to try and see how you and your fish like it.
Donna, most of my mbuna like the green beans, but I rarely feed it to them because it can be a real mess. If you break it into small bite-sized pieces and feed very sparingly, maybe. If you drop them in straight from the can (like I do for my plecos) they will grab and chase and rip it to pieces. Your plecos would probably find any leftovers, but a lot of it might end up in the filter.
Chiisai, if you'd like a small sample of nls, I can give you some to try and see how you and your fish like it.
Donna, most of my mbuna like the green beans, but I rarely feed it to them because it can be a real mess. If you break it into small bite-sized pieces and feed very sparingly, maybe. If you drop them in straight from the can (like I do for my plecos) they will grab and chase and rip it to pieces. Your plecos would probably find any leftovers, but a lot of it might end up in the filter.