Copper Poisoning

[dleblanc]

The Seachem stuff isn't that horrendously expensive. I use a tablespoon of equilibrium per 30 gallons. I've been changing water in 120 gallons worth of tanks, now that the 180 is running (225 with sump), that's up to about 320. A 600g bottle has lasted me months. Basically, the same story on the alkaline buffer.

I know the chemistry, but choose to delegate the problem to SeaChem ;-)

 

[ShortyKiloGyrl]

I just need to figure out what angels and bn prefer for all the minerals and elements and then what those abbreviations are lol I've been happy with Seachem stuff so far so I'll probably continue with their mineral additives

 

[MattArmstrong]

Some other options are discussed here: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.ph ... GH-Booster

I was researching it because Seattle water is so soft it might as well be RO after some period of plant growth.

 

[LuminousAphid]

Oh man, I hope this isn't the case in my house... I usually mix a bit of hot water with mostly cold to bring it up to temp, but I think I will start doing just cold water and using the extra heater I have to bring it up to temp. I'm glad you found your problem, and thanks for sharing so that we can all be aware that this is a potential problem.

 

[ShortyKiloGyrl]

Oh man, I hope this isn't the case in my house... I usually mix a bit of hot water with mostly cold to bring it up to temp, but I think I will start doing just cold water and using the extra heater I have to bring it up to temp. I'm glad you found your problem, and thanks for sharing so that we can all be aware that this is a potential problem.

You can buy a copper test kit that's like the API freshwater test kits for pH and such. I bought one so I can find out when my tanks are safe again. It's been such a fiasco but as of last night I have everything so I can start doing changes! I can't wit to get the ball rolling and get this fixed. I strongly advise doing cold water changes. Anything less than 50% is safe to do and I did multiple times on my own tanks with no bad results. The fish just color down some after the change. I just let my tank heaters do the work to bring the temp back up and found when doing 50% or less it really didn't change it too drastically.

 

[dleblanc]

I like two things about my staging tank - one is having a good temperature, the other is I can put a bubbler in it, and it comes into the tank with 100% oxygen saturation. If something is wrong, bringing in oxygen rich water can save fishy lives.

 

[LuminousAphid]

I have a 55 that I got from the neighbor for 5 bucks, I was thinking about making my own 'staging tank'... I didn't know that was a thing, but I might start using it to both let the water gas off its CO2 and let the temp rise. By the way, not to hijack the thread, but is it better to let water sit for a while after using conditioner? I usually just dump it in there after about 1 minute, but this has made me think twice about maybe letting it sit for a while

How much did the kit cost you? I would ask if you could test a sample for me, but then everyone on here will want the same thing haha

 

[ShortyKiloGyrl]

It was $15 at my expensive local fish store. But I have seen it online for about 4.99 plus shipping here.

http://www.bigalspets.com/copper-test-k ... oCSpXw_wcB

 

[LuminousAphid]

I was thinking about this again as I was trying to figure out why all my snails are dying... I think I have the same issue with copper as you. Most likely copper pipes, since this is an old house. From now on, I will be running the cold water for a couple of minutes before I use it for water changes. Hopefully that will correct the issue, because I am definitely not going to go ro/di. Way too expensive.

If that doesn't work, I might have to stop keeping inverts until I move somewhere without stupid copper pipes.

 

[ShortyKiloGyrl]

My whole RO/DI set up cost me less than $400.

I however had to do more than most people since mine will be sitting outside. You can use standard garbage cans instead of a rain barrel and save almost $150 there. Subtract the fittings for drinking water is another $25. I added those for an additional line break before the DI so I can use the same system for drinking water as well. I as well chose to use an in-line pump so I could use it to remove water from the tanks and add from the barrel and not use other slower methods of water transportation. If you take that out of the equation as well it would reduce by another $33. If you are home to watch the water level the auto shut off valve isn't necessary either which is another $15.

If you go with the basic set up (RO/DI system, air pump, minerals, ph neutralizer, and 50 gal garbage can) it would cost about $250.

The system I got is a 75gpd RO/DI from Bulk Reef Supply, a rain barrel for staging, a stand for the barrel, in-line pump, float shut off valve, fittings for drinking water adaption, mineral powder to add back in, ph neutralizer, and a large air pump for mixing powder with water all shipped to me for less than $400.



Have you ever tried doing cold water changes? If you are still using warm water when doing changes I would run your hot water for a while first. Your hot water tank will hold sediments such as copper and lead and when you use it will stir it up and deposit it into your tank. If you do a 50% water change or less each time a cold water change is perfectly fine to do and will not harm the fish. It will actually benefit them. I have been doing this for quite some time with no ill results. The fish temporarily color down but are much more active afterwards. I have chose to continue cold water changes.

 

[dleblanc]

You could do something like this http://spectrapure.com/RO-RODI/RODI-SYSTEMS/Refurbished-90-GPD-RODI-System - that's $125.

I paid about $50 for a new food quality 30 gallon barrel - you want the ones with the removable top. Then add a suitable heater, and a bubbler. I have 3 holes cut into it - you take 1 1/2" pipe fittings, get a 2" electrical conduit ring as a spacer, screw them together through the hole. Your power cords come out one hole, the pump out comes out the other.

You then need to have a way to mix chemicals in to reconstitute the water. I started off just mixing it externally, pouring it in. What I like better is I got a 1 1/2" to 3" adapter, a small piece of 3" pipe (6-8" will do), and made a mixing input - there's a screen at the bottom. You just throw your powders in there, put the return hose in the pipe, turn it on, let it run for a couple of minutes.

I'll try to take pics and post them.

 

[LuminousAphid]

Again, thanks for sharing your experience with this issue, and for the suggestions. Do you think that the copper levels in the house might be higher during the winter, due to differences in how much hot vs. cold water is running through the pipes? Or do you think it's more of an issue of buildup over time from constant trace amounts?

I just don't think I am into the hobby enough right now to spend any extra money and time on something like any of these systems--I unfortunately have to prioritize and save money for a down payment on a new car, as mine is getting rather elderly--but I do appreciate the suggestions and info from different points of view. It's good to know that if I ever really want to have super clean water, it's possible to do it cheaper. If I was going to do it, though, I would probably spend the extra money like you did and make sure it's bombproof and set up for ease of use. It sounds like you are all set up now for superclean water, and I am sincerely hoping and crossing my fingers that this helps you enjoy the hobby and your pets more. I know you are super into your tanks and all your nice exotic fish, so i can definitely see where it makes sense for you.

Anyway, I have definitely been using only cold water since you made this topic, and even then I have been running the bathtub tap for a good 2 minutes to make sure I am getting water that has been sitting in the municipal lines, not my own pipes. I think with what I am keeping, it should solve any problems. The most sensitive thing I have are ramshorn and MTS, which are in the middle of a huge die-off in my 20, but it's not like I want to be keeping CRS or anything. The only thing I am worried about is residual copper, and how long it might take my substrate and silicone to stop leaching it. I have heard silicone can absorb it from medications, but I don't know if there was ever enough in my water for that. I have also heard the substrate can be much higher in copper than the actual water column because gravity carries it to the bottom as it chelates/oxidizes? (I don't know if any of this is true-internet told me)

I almost literally never gravel vac, so I'm sure if that last tidbit is true--and it makes sense it would be--I probably have quite a bit of copper down there, which might be why the MTS in that tank have started dying. Add to that the soft water I was keeping them in until I started adding equilibrium, and I'm sure they were never long for this world.

 

[tazeat]

Stupid copper? Copper is expensive but its one of the best materials for plumbing there is... It's impermeable and inhibits bacteria growth, lasts forever in the home, and is just generally safe being made from natural copper and not synthetics. I guess in a new home pex is finally getting to the point I'd trust it on a reliability level and is certainly cheaper, but in an old home especially, copper is a hell of a lot better than steel piping for so many reasons...

That said reducing levels in the aquarium you can use a dechlornator that contains tetrasodium as to chelate any heavy metals make it less toxic to your animals.

 

[ShortyKiloGyrl]

Copper does build up over time in tanks if it is found in the lines. that's where my problem was coming in. I thought my parameters were bad so I did more frequent larger water changes. After each change more fish died. I found out it was a result of the tank never really releasing much copper.

I do believe you should gravel vac more to try and help that. I have pond / pest / bladder snails and MTS in my copper ridden tanks and they have been thriving and multiplying. So it may be something other than metals but the metals may be a factor that's for sure. I do believe the type of copper found in our homes is a different form than in medicines. However neither is good.


As far as the additives like metal detoxifying. It has been proven to not be effective enough to be a solution. While it will help minimally a better filtration system is the only way to go about removing heavy metals from the system when in toxic amounts. In your case after running the water it may help. In my situation it would have been a fetal attempt.

 

[dleblanc]

So test for copper and find out. Letting it run for a while is a great idea. I didn't go for RO/DI just because I thought it would be a good geek thing to do. I'm on a well, and when it got to the dead of last winter, I started having algae from hell. Plants were all dying back, and my nice planted aquarium that looked so awesome to start with was a disaster. My instinct was to do more water changes, make sure the water was clean, also vacuum out the crud.

So it got _worse_. Then I asked a guy who is admin on the Fishaholics FB group (group is pretty fluffy, this guy is good), and he said I should test the tap water. Tap water was running 40 ppm nitrates out of the tap! Great, I'm doing water changes with fertilizer. Oh, yay. Now I'm buying 5 gallon jugs, schlepping them to the Fred Meyer, down the stairs to the basement, and it is costing I think about $0.50/gallon. Inconvenient, it is a workout, and expensive. Got the Spectrapure on order pretty quickly, couldn't wait to set it up - carrying 120 pounds of water down the stairs every couple days was not fun.

If you have acid water, like I do, then copper in the house is a very bad idea - had to replace all the incoming pipes for the entire house not long after moving in. That was _not_ cheap.

There are ways to pull metals out of things - the process is chelation. That said, I have no idea how one would accomplish that in a running aquarium. But if you can find something that binds copper, and isn't toxic itself, give it a try. I think I'd buy one of those test kits like ShortyKiloGyrl got, and find out how much of a problem you really have.

 

[LuminousAphid]

Ok, well for myself, I just did some re-evaluating, and I think aside from the possible copper, I have some other issues... I just took apart my sponge filter and it turns out it was 100% clogged inside at one of the fittings, but there were still bubbles coming up from somewhere so I didn't realize it was doing nothing. And in fact it was probably slowly releasing trace ammonia as the stuff that's been trapped in the sponge slowly rots. Now it's chugging along nicely, I didn't even realize how weak the bubbles had become over time.

I also didn't see that both my chopsticks snails are dead They aren't huge, but could certainly put out enough ammonia to kill my ramshorns and continue to worsen the spike. After I got them out, I smelled the vac'd water and it's not good at all. Not the worst smell in the world like some people claim--tonsil stones, anyone? worst smell I've ever smelled--but pretty bad. I think in the morning (I should do it now but family is sleeping) I will do a big water change and continue cleaning up the debris around the tank.

Sorry to muddle up your thread with all this, I was focusing in so much on the possible copper issue that I failed to see the obvious issues I was not dealing with. But it is still good to know about copper issues, and I definitely will keep using cold water to try to avoid the situation, as I am still fairly sure this house has copper considering its age.

 

[ShortyKiloGyrl]

Oh not a problem. It was copper related still. Hopefully your filter cleaning will fix alot of it! I did purchase an API Copper test kit. I tested the water from our tap and it listed it ridiculously low, I also tested from a tank which was a little lower. Given the results from a professional evaluation on the levels, I asked a very knowledgeable member on a forum and he said he has found himself as well that those copper test kits aren't very accurate and you should go to your water supplier to get an appropriate test. Uhg...

As for a little update, last night I did the one hour mandatory flush on the new RO/DI system and started filling empty jugs I have kept with drinking water. I am going to test it tonight for GH and KH and see where I'm at on those.

But here is a pic: