UPDATED: STILL WACKY (Crazy water testing results.)

Ali

Ali

Active Member
Re: Crazy water testing results.

Vickmacki and you guys are right. I think the fish are looking fine because the pH is keeping the ammonia safe(R).

So with every water change the pH is coming up, and ammonia becomes more and more dangerous. With how high it is already it will be a lot of water changes before it is at safe levels, the exposure getting down to .25 or so will take days and might kill them. I can pull the fish to a better tank but the pH shock might kill them too...

Feels like a bad game of fishy Russian roulette.
 
Betty

Betty

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Re: Crazy water testing results.

Ali, your 37 gallon tank hasn't been set up long, has it? Was it around mid-January? Maybe it hasn't fully cycled yet. Is this the same tank that had the plump tetras that looked like they might have been overeating?

When you do your filter maintenance, you aren't thoroughly cleaning all of the media are you?
 
Ali

Ali

Active Member
Re: Crazy water testing results.

Matt, tons of great info in there. I'll tackle it bit by bit.

First, I have a hare-brained scheme: I have a new tank sitting empty I haven't set up yet. What if I threw it together, managed to get the pH down to match what is in the little tanks now (tests don't read below 6.0, but I can do some math to figure out what it is exactly) so I can pull the fish into there. If I get a jump start on bacteria, get some cycled media etc. I can slowly raise the pH to something more normal and minimize the ammonia spikes. Even a tank first cycling won't have levels as high as there are now. Is it worth trying???

We've had this betta for 3 years, and he's moved to North Carolina and back when my SO took a job there. He's also trained to swim through my fingers if I make them into hoop. It will really stink if I lose him over this.

Right now I'm definitely more freaked out on the crazy numbers in the 5 and 3 gal tanks.

Details of the 37:
Bought it a few months ago. Has a HOB, and 3 dual sponge filters powered by a good-sized air pump. Finnex Stingray LED fixture I got for Valentine's day. Gravel substrate and a bunch of bogwood.
As far as plants I have a half dozen "Wonder bulbs" (Couldn't spell the scientific name) that are various ages, some Jungle Val, Water Sprite, recently bought a big anubias.
Fish are 1 clown pleco, 6 corydoras agasazzi, 5 green neon tetras, 3 neons, 12 endler's and whatever fry escaped the hungry tetras.

I don't mess with the filters much, really just gravel vac siphoning. I'll rinse the cartridge in tank water or use the gravel vac to suck surface gunk off of the sponges. Nothing that should kill bacteria. I made that mistake with my tank as a kid and won't do it again.
 
Ali

Ali

Active Member
Re: Crazy water testing results.

Yeah, those were the fat tetras. I don't think I was feeding too much, just that the tetras eat like mad before the endler's even get a nibble. The tank I am thinking about using to try to save the betta (see above wacky scheme) is earmarked to put the tetras into. They're my boyfriend's favorite fish and he wants a tank of his own.
 
MattArmstrong

MattArmstrong

Member
Re: Crazy water testing results.

If I were you and had unlimited tanks I'd get all the fish out of these tanks. A single pH shock is better for your fish than sitting in Ammonia, which is why, as Cory mentioned, many shippers recommend (possibly) pH shocking the fish into the new tank in one go instead of slow drip acclimation.

That said, I'd feel terrible if you did just that and fish died. But think of the alternative: right now they're sitting in a potentially toxic soup -- and the betta in the >0 Nitrites *is* in a toxic soup.

I'd also consider "instant cycle" products like Tetra SafeStart. They're not perfect. I have heard that it can take 6 months for a tank to really hit a steady state where the bio bed is nice and solid and not prone to mini-cycles, etc. "Instant cycle" products don't get you an aged 6 month old tank, or even a 1 month cycled tank, but they could let you throw the entire contents of your 37 into a bare tank with a good chance of everything surviving. That isn't advised; usually they say that even with instant cycle you should add something like one tetra fish per 5g to start, then add more fish slowly.

I recently did this with a new 48G. Threw in Tetra SafeStart and 12 small corydoras. Two weeks later 20 rummynose tetras. Ammonia and Nitrites have always tested zero on this tank. Granted, I did take a cycled canister from a different tank, so I thought ramping up fast would be "OK." I won't do this again unless I have to. I did see signs of fish stress despite good tests. I'll go slower next time, but this can work in an emergency.

The ammonia readings you're getting are really high. I'm not sure Prime can neutralize that much. I really don't know what I'd do in your shoes!
 
Ali

Ali

Active Member
Re: Crazy water testing results.

I'm as worried about that one yet. The 37 gal has ammonia readings between 0 and 0.25 ppm, the lowest color on the indicator sheet. Nitrites essentially 0 and pH at 7.4 which is consistent with my tap. But I'll be diligent about water changes and keep testing regularly. Anything I can do to give my bacteria a boost?

The real problems are the 5.5 and the betta's tank. Those were the ones with insane readings I originally posted about.

I think I am going to throw together a new little tank. I'll buy a chunk of javamoss, an instastart product, and something to lower pH a bit to try to minimize the shock. Maybe some live black worms from the co-op, so if it's fatal at least the guy will have a good last meal. Seems the least I can do :(
 
J

jrygel

New Member
Re: Crazy water testing results.

I used a double dose of Dr. Tim's One and Only to get my tank started and it seemed to work. It was a little hard to tell since my tank was moderately planted and lightly stocked at the start: I never measured any ammonia or nitrite and didn't really register nitrate until the tank was fully stocked a couple months later. I bought into the (possibly marketing) hype that since it is live bacteria, you need to buy relatively recent dates and it needs to be packed properly to not freeze - in other words, buy it off of Dr. Tim's website - they really are pretty helpful and pack it in a foam shipping container, they'll throw in a bottle of ammonia for fishless cycling if you want (not that you need that).

http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/treat-aqu ... nia-levels

-Justin
 
MattArmstrong

MattArmstrong

Member
Re: Crazy water testing results.

If I believe the internets, "Dr. Tim" is the same guy that designed Tetra SafeStart. They are similar products. I've never used a "Dr. Tim" product but I like the marketing.

Ali, if you want to boost your 37 you could throw kind of thing in there too. That 0.25 reading could go up before it goes down.

Seachem Stability is also "supposed" to work. Their claim is that their formula ships very well, so you'll get more consistent results.

Steve at Aquarium Zen was throwing some kind of similar product form Germany (or maybe Japan?) in his tanks when I was in there once. He said he does it prophylactically whenever he changes up a tank significantly.

Another thing not mentioned: aeration. Nitrification needs O2. Sounds like you have that covered, though.
 
flamechica

flamechica

New Member
Re: Crazy water testing results.

I think if I were you, I would try to get a hold of some filer media from someone in your area like KaraWolf suggested... if you tell us where you are located, someone here could probably help. That could make an almost instant cycle. Just DON'T rinse the media. That is how I have been setting up my new tanks recently and things have been going fairly smooth. I have been having media seed in my currently running tanks, for the next tank that I want to set up. I think that would be a much more stable start than insta-start products from the store, personally. I basically set up the tank completely with the heater, filter (without media), substrate, etc and run it to make sure that the heat stays stable for at least overnight, if not a full day. Then I add the media for a few hours. Do a test to make sure nothing is wonky. Then add my fish slowly. You don't want to leave the media going without a source of ammonia for very long or the bacteria will start to die.
 
Ali

Ali

Active Member
Re: Crazy water testing results.

UPDATE:

After lots of big water changes things are starting to look a bit better

3Gal Hydroponics:
pH: 6.7
Ammonia: 1.5ppm (Still scary high, but considering it was at 8ppm I'm pleased)
Nitrites: .25ppm Also higher then I want, but it means the nitrogen cycle is running and bacteria are doing their job.
Nitrates: 40ppm

So far the betta is still acting okay. I'm going to add more wheatgrass to the top to hopefully suck up some nitrates and keep things moving along nicely.

5.5Gal with Endler Fry:
pH: <6. Still too low for the kit to pick up
Ammonia: 4.0ppm (but it's down from 12!)
Nitrites: 1.0ppm
Nitrates: 80ppm

Surprised nitrates are that high with all the plants in there. It's going to be a while, but I'm optimistic things will even out.

Thinking I will buy blackworms on Saturday, and add them to the tanks. That way what doesn't get eaten will just live in the substrate instead of decaying in the water. And I don't have to feed other food and might overfeed.
 
MattArmstrong

MattArmstrong

Member
Re: Crazy water testing results.

At pH 6.7 I'd net your betta into a 1 gallon bowl or even a bucket while his tank cycles. pH shock is a non-concern now. There is little sense stressing him with non-zero ammonia and nitrtite while his tank cycles. Daily 1/2 gallon water changes will keep him happy in a 1 gallon.

I'd say the same for the endlers, but I don't know what to do about pH shock.

Good luck! Hope everything turns out alright.
 
Ali

Ali

Active Member
Re: Crazy water testing results.

So a jump of 0.7 pH isn't an issue? They say it's not ideal to exceed .2 in a day but there's been nothing "ideal" about this whole situation.

Thanks so much for all the advice, really appreciate it. This forum is just awesome!
 
MattArmstrong

MattArmstrong

Member
Re: Crazy water testing results.

Much is made of pH, and I'm not sure how to judge the impact on a quick change of pH -vs- Ammonia+Nitrite toxicity.

Planted tank people swing their pH daily by much more than 0.2 with CO2 injection (0.5 easily), and fish don't care. Many people that ship fish advise people to just equalize temperature and plop the fish in the tank (to avoid Ammonium->Ammonia issues). We know Ammonia and Nitrite kills fish, and we know a quick pH change stresses them.

So it is picking the lesser of two evils.
 
tazeat

tazeat

New Member
Re: Crazy water testing results.

To be fair pH I've read changes from co2 are not as stressful since the dKH and dGH don't change.
 
Bob

Bob

Well-Known Member
Re: Crazy water testing results.

MattArmstrong said:
Many people that ship fish advise people to just equalize temperature and plop the fish in the tank (to avoid Ammonium->Ammonia issues).
Click to expand...

This is what i do most of the time, get the temp the same and plop them in, never an issue
 
MattArmstrong

MattArmstrong

Member
Re: Crazy water testing results.

It seems right that pH change without a change in KH would be easier for fish to take. Makes me want to read up on the mechanisms in play -- osmotic pressure and such. I do that every so often, but then I forget it all. ;-)
 
Ali

Ali

Active Member
Re: Crazy water testing results.

Betta got temperature acclimated, and plopped into a net breeder in the 37. So far so good. The endler fry are still in the 5.5 but I'll move them tomorrow.

If I don't want the cycle in the smaller taks to shut down without fish to generate waste, should I just add a drop of ammonia daily? A tiny bit of food?
 
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