fishguy1978
Legendary Member
Day 2 of paraguard dosing. Pulled from my maintenance account.
Fungus
- Thread starter fishguy1978
- Start date
fishguy1978
Legendary Member
I think it's getting worse. Ideas for treatment?
John58Ford
Well-Known Member
This is odd to me. There are some basic things I've clung on to in diagnosis and am no expert so school me if this is bad thought process.
Acute disease in not symmetrical.
Symmetry indicates systemic trauma or failure of a specific subsystem.
If this holds true, we would be looking at a secondary fungal infection, with either a systemic trauma or failure in an organ that contributes to the health of the gills right?
Maracyn(fritz branded erythromycin phosphate) is a broad spectrum but prodomanantly gram positive with a molecular weight of 840.
Nitrofurazone is a broad spectrum with more even gram targeting and a molecular weight of 199
It is commonly thought that fish can only absorb through osmosis 100-200g/mol or smaller with variance in species tolerance (or need for) salt or high mineral waters. I have had luck using a med in the 204g/mol range so I would believe it likely that nitrofurazone would be a better option if treating an underlaying condition of systemic failure, and not a dermal layer acute problem.
It's possible though since this guy is a sand sifter; he pulled something gnarly through the gills and did get some symmetrical acute trauma, here is where I say again, I dable.
Would love a review of my theory by @sir_keith. I think he's likely more educated on this and has a good reason for recommending the erythromycin. (Honestly I don't even know if that cat is nitrofurazone tolerant or if the ld50 might be whacky).
Acute disease in not symmetrical.
Symmetry indicates systemic trauma or failure of a specific subsystem.
If this holds true, we would be looking at a secondary fungal infection, with either a systemic trauma or failure in an organ that contributes to the health of the gills right?
Maracyn(fritz branded erythromycin phosphate) is a broad spectrum but prodomanantly gram positive with a molecular weight of 840.
Nitrofurazone is a broad spectrum with more even gram targeting and a molecular weight of 199
It is commonly thought that fish can only absorb through osmosis 100-200g/mol or smaller with variance in species tolerance (or need for) salt or high mineral waters. I have had luck using a med in the 204g/mol range so I would believe it likely that nitrofurazone would be a better option if treating an underlaying condition of systemic failure, and not a dermal layer acute problem.
It's possible though since this guy is a sand sifter; he pulled something gnarly through the gills and did get some symmetrical acute trauma, here is where I say again, I dable.
Would love a review of my theory by @sir_keith. I think he's likely more educated on this and has a good reason for recommending the erythromycin. (Honestly I don't even know if that cat is nitrofurazone tolerant or if the ld50 might be whacky).
fishguy1978
Legendary Member
I have Seachem Polyguard which has these active ingredients: sulfathiazole (36%), malachite green (1.9%), nitrofurantoin (0.14%), nitrofural (0.14%), quinacrine dihydrochloride (0.27%). Inactive ingredients: excipients (61%).
Seachem recommends 1wk for fungal on their website. The container says dose after 3 days and continue for 2wks. I will do the latter.
Seachem recommends 1wk for fungal on their website. The container says dose after 3 days and continue for 2wks. I will do the latter.
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John- Good thoughts all, but I'd add the following.
(a) Acute disease in not symmetrical.- Often true, but not necessarily so. It may present symmetrically if the target tissues are themselves symmetrically located.
(b) Symmetry indicates systemic trauma or failure of a specific subsystem.- Sometimes true, but not always, as indicated above
(c) If this holds true, we would be looking at a secondary fungal infection, with either a systemic trauma or failure in an organ that contributes to the health of the gills right?- I agree. Almost all fungal infections are secondary, in the sense that they arise opportunistically in tissues that have been compromised in some way, either directly or indirectly. But it's complicated by the fact that a single stressor (e. g. immunodeficiency) may present in many different ways.
(d) It is commonly thought that fish can only absorb through osmosis 100-200g/mol or smaller...- Osmosis is not the only mechanism by which antibiotics enter the system. If this were true, none of the antibiotics with molecular masses greater than the range you describe would be effective, yet empirical observations indicate that many high m. w. compounds are highly effective.
(e) I would believe it likely that nitrofurazone would be a better option if treating an underlaying condition of systemic failure, and not a dermal layer acute problem...- I'm not following you here. Antibiotics target adventitious infections that occur when tissues are compromised in some way; they do not affect the root cause of the problem. Once the infection is under control, one looks to identify and remedy the underlying cause, which in aquarium fishes is often called 'stress,' an umbrella term that encompasses a multitude of causes, including poor water management, overcrowding, inappropriate social and/or physical environment, etc., as you know.
(f) It's possible though since this guy is a sand sifter; he pulled something gnarly through the gills and did get some symmetrical acute trauma...- Just so, see (a), above.
(g) ...a good reason for recommending the erythromycin...- Nothing complicated here, just empirical observations, i. e. it generally works as well as or better than other medications. In practice, you can take some of the guess work out of this by using commercial preparations composed of mixtures of different antimicrobials. This 'throw-everything-at-it-but-the-kitchen-sink' approach can be very effective.
(a) Acute disease in not symmetrical.- Often true, but not necessarily so. It may present symmetrically if the target tissues are themselves symmetrically located.
(b) Symmetry indicates systemic trauma or failure of a specific subsystem.- Sometimes true, but not always, as indicated above
(c) If this holds true, we would be looking at a secondary fungal infection, with either a systemic trauma or failure in an organ that contributes to the health of the gills right?- I agree. Almost all fungal infections are secondary, in the sense that they arise opportunistically in tissues that have been compromised in some way, either directly or indirectly. But it's complicated by the fact that a single stressor (e. g. immunodeficiency) may present in many different ways.
(d) It is commonly thought that fish can only absorb through osmosis 100-200g/mol or smaller...- Osmosis is not the only mechanism by which antibiotics enter the system. If this were true, none of the antibiotics with molecular masses greater than the range you describe would be effective, yet empirical observations indicate that many high m. w. compounds are highly effective.
(e) I would believe it likely that nitrofurazone would be a better option if treating an underlaying condition of systemic failure, and not a dermal layer acute problem...- I'm not following you here. Antibiotics target adventitious infections that occur when tissues are compromised in some way; they do not affect the root cause of the problem. Once the infection is under control, one looks to identify and remedy the underlying cause, which in aquarium fishes is often called 'stress,' an umbrella term that encompasses a multitude of causes, including poor water management, overcrowding, inappropriate social and/or physical environment, etc., as you know.
(f) It's possible though since this guy is a sand sifter; he pulled something gnarly through the gills and did get some symmetrical acute trauma...- Just so, see (a), above.
(g) ...a good reason for recommending the erythromycin...- Nothing complicated here, just empirical observations, i. e. it generally works as well as or better than other medications. In practice, you can take some of the guess work out of this by using commercial preparations composed of mixtures of different antimicrobials. This 'throw-everything-at-it-but-the-kitchen-sink' approach can be very effective.
Not a bad idea [see (g) in my previous post]. If this is going to be effective, you should see results early on. Good luck.
fishguy1978
Legendary Member
I'll pick up some Maracyn today so I have it available if the polyguard doesn't work.
fishguy1978
Legendary Member
The history on this fish is that it came from an overstocked 65g. I maintain the tank but am only able to get over once a month. There are 3 raph's, 3 upside down syn, Cory cats, 7 small angels and 2 small redhump geo's. I pulled the 2 highfin eruptus from this tank. The tank has marbles and larger round gravel with a UGF and HOB. The HOB pulls through the uplift tube for the UGF and has a bag of ceramic media and sponge blocks.
I would not be surprised if the eruptus were the cause of an injury to the porthole or any other fish in the tank. Thankfully, I have told to retain it here in one of my tanks.
I am working with the owner trying to get him to feed less and not add more fish.
@fishguy1978, Ive got kanaplex and a few other things on hand if you need them.
Ive used this info in the past and gave always kept it bookmarked for reference
Ive used this info in the past and gave always kept it bookmarked for reference
Aquarium Medications and Treatments Part 1 | How They Work & Use
How aquarium and pond medications and treatments work. Information as to gram positive or negative, aerobic or anaerobic, dosage and diseases they are effective for. By fish/aquarium disease expert/guru Carl Strohmeyer
www.americanaquariumproducts.com
No wonder that poor fish is in ill-health...
fishguy1978
Legendary Member
Thanks, I have kanaplex, paraguard, polyguard and now the fritz Maracyn.@fishguy1978, Ive got kanaplex and a few other things on hand if you need them.
Ive used this info in the past and gave always kept it bookmarked for reference
Aquarium Medications and Treatments Part 1 | How They Work & Use
How aquarium and pond medications and treatments work. Information as to gram positive or negative, aerobic or anaerobic, dosage and diseases they are effective for. By fish/aquarium disease expert/guru Carl Strohmeyerwww.americanaquariumproducts.com
fishguy1978
Legendary Member
Fungus is looking worse so I added a dose of maracyn.
fishguy1978
Legendary Member
I think the methblue is working. I'm out of town at a really inopportune time. Will update Sunday.
A lot of people forget about the meth-blue. Ive used it as a bath/dip in the past on wild caught bichirs with bad fin rot when they came in and worked great. Huge mess doing it that way since the fish splash concentrated blue dyed water all over the place… you end up looking like a Smurf when your done, lol.
Hope he does well, hoplo have always been one of my favorite cats. He looks to be pretty sizable too!
Hope he does well, hoplo have always been one of my favorite cats. He looks to be pretty sizable too!
fishguy1978
Legendary Member
Doesn't look better but it doesn't look worse. I will do a full water change tomorrow and do a meth Blu dip too.
fishguy1978
Legendary Member
Did 3 Meth Blue dips with about a minute or so between and dosed the hospital with maracyn.
fishguy1978
Legendary Member
On day 5 of 2nd round of maracyn. Not sure that it is being effective. Also, there's yellowish detritus in tank, I'm not sure if it's puss discharge or poo. Pic's this evening.