Want to build first sump

[dleblanc]

I just went through all sorts of interesting puzzles designing the sump for my 180 I just got running in the last couple of weeks. The number one thing you want to figure out is how much rise you get in the tank level to manage the flow.

So just for example, I figured a 1.25" rise, the tank has an area of 1664 sq. inches, so that gives me 9 gallons. Then some portion of the overflow will drain into the sump. Next, figure out how to run your returns so that they don't become siphons. And add in a bit for the water in the pipes.

The total here is the volume of water that the sump takes between pump off and pump on. If you don't have enough volume in your sump, then you don't have much room for water loss before your pumps run dry. In mine, I have 20 gallons between the non-emergency high water mark and the low water mark. I just put a little pump in the sump, let it pump out the water for water changes, which now happen completely in the sump, fish don't even know anything happened.

I have a weird 3 door stand, and don't have access from the sides. I had to do a whole bunch of funky design to get this to work. If you have a stand that allows you to just slide something in underneath, you can just use a plain glass aquarium and save yourself a lot of money and pain.

Something else - it is highly unlikely that the pump(s) will put out exactly the amount of water you want, so make sure to put a valve upstream of the pump. I have learned from the school of hard knocks that a cheap $10 valve sticks and is hard to get right. A $20 gate valve is a _much_ better option.

I just went through all this, happy to share what I did, lessons learned etc. Got lots of help from Cory, who is awesome.

 

[Anonymous]

Putting together my sump systems was an interesting adventure as well. I love my sump sytem. Next adventure if it pertains to you is making the system as quiet as one can. I got mine so all you hear is a slight humm from the large external pump. The system is quiter than the AC 70 that's filtering a 29 gallon tank under the main tank.

Next, figure out how to run your returns so that they don't become siphons.

Did you figure this out okay? 1st protective messure - water return resting right under the tanks max water line. 2nd protective messure - one way valve. I use a brass flap valve. The one way valve also keeps the return line primed for a faster (instant) system restart.

I just put a little pump in the sump, let it pump out the water for water changes, which now happen completely in the sump, fish don't even know anything happened.

Perfect! One could take this a step further and plumb lines for automatic water changers . I drilled a hole in my sump at the max water level ( 5 inches above the pump water inlet). Drilled a hole in the wall , and plumbed a drain outside. Then tapped into a water line, water changes are now a flip of a switch. It's a slow water change, but on Sundays I let it run for a couple hours, add a bit of Prime.

I have a weird 3 door stand, and don't have access from the sides. I had to do a whole bunch of funky design to get this to work. If you have a stand that allows you to just slide something in underneath, you can just use a plain glass aquarium and save yourself a lot of money and pain.

Very true. My 1st system was pretty tight in the stand. I built the stand for my 140 and designed it specifically for easy sump access.

It is highly unlikely that the pump(s) will put out exactly the amount of water you want, so make sure to put a valve upstream of the pump. I have learned from the school of hard knocks that a cheap $10 valve sticks and is hard to get right. A $20 gate valve is a _much_ better option.

This is very good advice. I am walking a fellow hobbiest through a sump system build. A check valve and ball valve are your best friends in this system.

I just went through all this, happy to share what I did, lessons learned etc. Got lots of help from Cory, who is awesome.

:spoton: I also like pictures to go along with stories!

This is good stuff and a good post for anyone researching sump systems within our community. Thanks for posting!

 

[dleblanc]

This is my second shot at this - fishNAbowl, you may recall that I was having issues with the used tank and sumps that I bought. Got to put one system together, got whacked with the learning stick a lot, took it apart, tried again. I used a one way valve the first time, and then found out it only holds the water back long enough for me to forget about the whole thing, and come back to lots of water everywhere. Sounds like you have a better one way valve than I bought. So I decided to design for not having a 1-way valve.

Now I need to sort out how to add pictures, just took one - ack. At any rate, in this incarnation of the sump, the returns come in from the top, from there I used LocLine, and went directly into an elbow. From the elbow, there is a Y fitting. One branch goes down to get circulation as deep as I can, and the other is just above the surface with pumps off. The upper branch makes a siphon break when the pumps are off.

 

[Anonymous]

Thats exactly how I had my returns set up for the longest time. I've since made other modifications. Perhaps when you come over for those plants you can see my set up and compare designs. I am always up to learning and modifing my set up. I am in the process of thinking of a way to add spray bars.

 

[dleblanc]

Whew - just got done posting pictures and a lot of explanation to my web site.

http://goneriding-public.sharepoint.com/aquarium

 

[dleblanc]

Sigh - still having problems posting links to images directly. Feh - have to work on that.

 

[Bob]

Wow, thats a really nice setup. I may be abandoning this project and selling the tank. Have something else in the works.

 

[Anonymous]

Whew - just got done posting pictures and a lot of explanation to my web site.

http://goneriding-public.sharepoint.com/aquarium

Oh wow, HAHA! Never mind I don't want you to see my set up. Its a mess compared to yours.

 

[dleblanc]

Yeah, but your tank and your fish are awesome! Mine are just getting started.

 

[Bob]

Its official this project is either over or just on the back burner if i decide to not sell the tank. Picked up the 125 with a sump.

 

[Anonymous]

^ You'll get a lot more out of a 125 than a 90 A new build is in the near future, NICE!

 

[dleblanc]

Oh, something else from the school of hard knocks - I bought two Blue Line pumps. They are fairly noisy even with the isolation stands. I thought that was just how things go with external, but fishNAbowl has an external pump that is super quiet. So either shop around, or go with a submerged pump.

 

[Bob]

I havent done any research on pumps yet. But now i need to. I have no idea how many gph i need, no idea how to set up a sump. It will be a learning experience. Been watching youtube videos all day.

 

[dleblanc]

The reef people generally try to turn over the tank 10x per hour. I was shooting for 6x per hour, so for a 200 gallon tank, that would be 1200 gph.

All the pumps have output curves available, depending on how they are made, they either can overcome a lot of head loss, or they are designed for circulation. The rating you'll see is the flow rate with no head loss. The second rating you'll see is maximum head - the height at which the flow will drop to zero. This is all a quadratic curve, and you can download the charts and squint at them, or you can be an engineer about it - figure a straight line between the max flow, zero head point, and the zero flow max head point. Ideally, you'll be running somewhere in the middle. The actual curve will be a little higher, but if you have too much, dial it back. If you have too little, sell it on eBay at a loss, go spend more money. I'd rather dial it back. For total head, just measure the distance from the floor to the top of the tank where you put the returns.

You will read all sorts of nonsense, like an elbow equals a foot of pipe and so on. There's a lot of this on the aquarium sites. In reality, the head loss due to pipe friction is proportional to the square of the flow velocity. So just oversize your pipes, and life is good. PVC and fittings are cheap, and it isn't noticeably more expensive to use 1.25" instead of 1" pipes. A great resource for this is http://flexpvc.com/WaterFlowBasedOnPipeSize.shtml

Unless you have substantially undersized your pipes, the vast majority of the head loss will be vertical rise - unless you have a constriction. For example, one of my pumps pushes water through a CO2 reactor that has 3/4" fittings, and at my flow rate, that creates a fair bit of drop.

If you want to have a UV sterilizer, CO2 reactor, etc, then think about whether you want all the return water going through those, or whether you want to put them on different branches. If you put them on different branches, then you will need a valve per branch so you can tune each one.

You are also going to be rate limited on how much your overflow can move. A calculator for that is found here - http://reefcentral.com/index.php/drainoverflow-size-calc. I've found it to be pretty accurate. So unless you are having the tank built to your specifications, then see how much water an overflow your size can move, and then work backwards from there. You also want to think about how fast a flow your fish are going to like, and small fish can get sucked down the overflow. That was my last round in the school of hard knocks, more on that later. What it boils down to is that you may only be able to run 2/3 of the theoretical max flow. Another reason to run at less than max is that if something clogs up your overflow, and you are running close to the edge, then the water will come out onto your floor. It will then come out of your sump until your sump goes dry, the pump becomes seriously unhappy, and an awful day is had all around.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh, something else from the school of hard knocks - I bought two Blue Line pumps. They are fairly noisy even with the isolation stands. I thought that was just how things go with external, but fishNAbowl has an external pump that is super quiet. So either shop around, or go with a submerged pump.

You are the 2nd person resently to tell me my pump is really quiet. It's funny because it started making more noise than usual a few months ago so I started hunting for replacements thinking it was wearing out. What's nice is if I wanted to I could rebuild the whole thing. Enough time (6 years) have gone by where I could rationalize purchasing a back up. Or perhaps at the lest a rebuild kit.

The pump I am using is a GEN X PCX40, if you want to look into them. They are still really expensive. I believe just over $200. There is many on the market for much less.

 

[Bob]

The pump I am using is a GEN X PCX40, if you want to look into them. They are still really expensive. I believe just over $200. There is many on the market for much less.

Do you have a source for this pump? All the normal sites i go to, amazon, kensfish, marinedepot, drfoster do not have it. Found it on one site but it looked kind of sketchy.

 

[dleblanc]

These people sell them - http://www.directaquarium.com/Pacific-Coast-Imports-Gen-X-PCX-40-Aquarium-Pump-p/12032.htm. I couldn't find anyone with them in stock, can't find the company - what appears to be the company URL goes to a domain parking bunch of BS. I found a page complaining bitterly about their submersible pumps, makes me think about failure modes and consequences, maybe a little noise isn't so bad after all.

Iwaki pumps are supposed to be the best, but they have a corresponding price tag. I have no personal experience with them.

 

[Bob]

Found a tiny crack in the 125g, so now that project is in the trash. Back to the 90 gallon i guess.

 

[Anonymous]

-WT....?

 

[Bob]

Yea, a very small crack on the outer part of the front pane up in the corner. Mostly covered by trim. Does not go through the glass. But cant risk it, very disappointing.