Salt in Freshwater Aquariums - How do you use it?

[Madness]

Well Chad I'm not sure of why the hostility towards Conway really not sure if something went on between you and him in the past, regardless the man is well educated and very knowledgeable, myself, you, and everyone else could learn quite a bit from him. I could get Paul Loiselle on here to speak about it, or how about Alf Stalsberg or maybe somebody from aquarium pharmaceuticals.  Just because they have a name that is well known and Conway does not, does not mean he is less educated regarding this topic.

And on a side note I really hate posting on my phone the damn thing never works right. Lol

I'd hate to see a little bit of information cause you to leave, but it is what it is I guess. I am sorry that you have such a dislike for him there's nothing I can do about that.  :cry: 

 

[Cory]

I use salt almost every day here at the shop in the quarantine room. For treating bacterial and fungal and some external parasites I find it to be a great tool.

People can claim what they want. I can only do what is working for me in my own store.

 

[cichlid-gal]

For those of you that THINK that the salt is what is healing the wounds or helping your sick fish; could it actually be the frequent water changes you do when your fish get sick?

I'm not so sure on this Madness.  I had a fish I recently moved from one tank to another.  He got beat up in the process.  I do once weekly water changes, 50%.  I had just done a water change before I put him in the tank so I didn't do another one.  He did not seem to be getting better so I added some salt.  Voila...2 days and he was like new.  

As for the regular addition of salt to the tank...I'm still open to learning what others think and appreciate your input.  I agree with some of what you said but don't feel knowledgeable enough to agree or disagree with other parts of what you said.  Given that, I'd still like to know what others are doing as I'm sure many are like me.   Anyone else have any thoughts?

I can almost guarantee you that it was not the salt.  The next time I have 2 fish with similar injuries I will do a study/video on this.    

I understand your efforts to ask the hobbyists what they do, but remember, like myself, we have all been taught from way back that adding salt is a good thing.  There are several websites and retailers (because they want you to buy it ), that tell you salt relieves stress, heals, cures parasite and bacterial issues.  But not 1 of them back any of that up with any scientific facts.

As I started getting heavier into keeping and breeding the more rare species, I wanted to know more.  Why do we add de-chlorinator, what exactly is it doing?  What is ICH?  What are parasites, and how do they attack our fish and why?  How do we eradicate these parasites?  Why do they say use salt?  What does it do?  Why does my hot water tank have so many high traces of metals?  Is this healthy for us humans or our fish?  What are the long term effects of these metals?  What are my options?  

Sure we can go onto Google and read articles on this, but most of those articles are written by the average hobbyist with absolutely no scientific evidence for backing there claims.  For example, the dreaded ICH confusion.  The idea that ICH lives dormant in your tank is completely FALSE.  But so many believe this, because that is what they were taught or told once.  We should never be so close minded in anything we do, that prohibits us from learning newer ideas, new ways, new truths.  I have learned to surround myself with some very knowledgeable individuals in this hobby, for the sole purpose of learning all that I can, so that I can be successful in raising and breeding these beautiful fish, and also because I love talking and teaching the hobby.  The more things I know, the more I can help.  

I understand that you will get answers like, "I have been doing this for years", or "thats what I was told to do by the LFS person", or "thats what I read".  There were no scientific facts to back up the claim or debunk it many years ago, but today we have that ability.  All it takes is asking the right people, scientists, ichthyologist, or anyone in this field of expertise.  

I could ramble on-and-on about things we all new to be the gospel once, but over the past few years have learned, that what we have always done, is not what we should continue to do.  

I appreciate your input and sharing Madness and you obviously feel very "convicted" about your findings.  I know I am that way too with many topics so I understand.  I do feel though that I have the right to ask hobbyists what they are doing and what works for them. Saying I should not inquire as to what others are doing and what is working for them because you or the scientists have the answers is silly.  I also don't think that other hobbyists beliefs or experiences should be quashed by scientific thoughts on this subject. If we allowed that we would never discover things on our own and would only go with what the scientists tell us, right? Many things are discovered by laymen and proven wrong by laymen. Scientists are not the end to all means...just saying. Hobbyists are in the tanks every day, working with their species and fish under "uncontrolled" circumstances. I think that often stands for more than controlled circumstances that scientists often work within.

My original discussion was based on a post by Seagrest Farms regarding their philosophies on salt and freshwater aquariums.  They even state right out of the shoot that this is highly debated topic. I asked

Who does what here?  Anyone add salt regularly or do you just add it for illness?  Me...I used to add it regularly then read an article saying not to so went that direction and only use it now for illness.  I'd be interested to know if anyone is using salt regularly in their freshwater tanks, what kind, how much and how often?

SOOOOO...lets keep this as an open discussion about salt in freshwater aquariums if we can please. This is an inquiry for future reference and thoughtfulness on my part. I'm open to knowing what everyone is doing. No judgments here folks.

 

[Madness]

I respect that response and that request Donna.  The help in me sometimes gets the better of me.  I understand what you requested, but I also understand that if I can help educate and/or help someone from doing something unnecessary and learning the hard way, then you better bet I will be helping them.  

I understand that a lot of us do things because it is what we have always done, I just cant help but reply with, "that doesnt mean it is the correct thing to do".  

A lot of people do the raise temps and add salt, that has been proven very ineffective and possibly harmful to some fish.  But there are those that have done it this way forever and continue to give that advice, even though "it is not the correct thing to do".  

Carry on with the OP's question:  Salt in Freshwater Aquariums - How do you use it? Who does what here?  Anyone add salt regularly or do you just add it for illness?

My response to those ?'s,  I dont use it.  lol

 

[cichlid-gal]

  Perfect and thanks for your great input on the topic Madness   

 

[star_rider]

Heat and parasites opens a completely new can of worms.  there are so many parasites and bacterial diseases that thrive in warmer temps.  So another topic for a different day.  "What we once thought about raising temps to ward off issues, may not be all its cracked up to be".  

@Chad--  Just because we do or have done something and got good results does not mean it is something we should do every time.  There are sooooo many other things that could have been the reason your fish got better.  Just like with humans, our first day with the flu is not the worst, its usually day 2 or 3.  Maybe your fish was in the recovery stage, maybe it was the fresh water.  I highly doubt it was the salt.  Maybe a little bit, bought not much.  

I will have a friend of mine stop by and chime in.  He is a very well known hobbyist that prides himself and specializes in illnesses, disease, medicines, and water conditions.

I agree , salt, heat etc should be administered for the specific parasite /bacteria you are dealing with.

 

[KaraWolf]

Only ever used salt and by salt I mean NaCl, on an instance of ick. Used heat too. Hopefully I never get it again because by the time it was done my RTS was very angry. Though Idk if it was the salt or the temp. Putting anything in the tank regularly would make me twitch because its already freshwater for my freshwater fish.

 

[ConStevens AquaSuppSys]

Salt is a very interesting topic as is raised temps. I think alot of people have misconceptions or just have heard it pushed on over the years. There has not unfortunatly in aquaria been super stuides with all the different speices of fish. There are many that are intollerant to it. Salt is a chemical. When most speak of salt were normally always talking Sodium Chloride.

I think we should look at some of the claims and cause and effect information.

Slime coat.. Sodium Chloride does not cause the slime coat to increase do to happy things. Its not due to enzymes from it. Its been proven that it acts as a irritant and causes the fish to increase the slime in a means to reduce the irritant. This actually goes against what were trying to help with. Reduced stress. It changes the stress factors.

Then lets look at the function of osmotic balance. Its the balance of sodium Chloride in a fishes body. Water moves from the hypotonic side to the hypertonic side in Osmoregulation, it increases the salt concentration on one side of this flow from and to a fishes body. A fish spends MUCH of its energy regualting this function as high as 40% in most cases. The fish are constatntly trying to reach equilibrium. At equilibrium, both sides of the flow have equal osmotic pressures and this is what the fish is trying to maintain. Fresh water fish are constantly in removeal of slats from the body as well as water in regualtion of osmotic function Throwing that balance off by adding Sodium Chloride causes them to work harder induce higher stress levels as well as irritates the skin and the fishes repsonse is to inicrease the slime coat. Not always the best hings either as it to controls osmotic functio as a membrane. Freshwater fish are hypertonic to their water environment and therefore, water is continually diffusing into the fish through the gill membranes into the blood. The gills are also permeable to respiratory gases, ammonia waste products, and ions. Therefore while water moves in towards the higher osmotic pressure of the blood sodium and chloride ions also diffuse out of the fish moving down their concentration gradients to the external environment. Freshwater fish must expend energy to regulate this ion loss and fluid uptake. Again adding more salt increases this work load. It can have negative effects on ill fish as instead of using energy to heal its now using energy to increase osmoregulation of the body. This constant expenditure of energy to maintain an osmotic balance is a reason why proper nutrition and low stress levels are important for healthy fish. Damage to the kidneys through bacterial infection or other means is often deadly as these organs extract the large amounts of water which continually diffuse into the fish's body. Sodium Chloride has many effects that can create issues for this.


I know many of the people saying Ive done it ive used it I saw results May have also been seeing results of improving factors done by water changes and other things such as improving the fishes Redox potential and free radicals cauing a boosted immune system. Ive seen just as many people if not more with the proper use of lots of fresh big water changes with fish that have had almost no fins left due to aggression or other issues bring them back into perfect health with no inclusion of Sodium Chloride.

There are MANY bacterial issues that salt has zero effect on and can actually in some cases cause an infection to become Septic due to forcing it into the system by the fish trying to increase Osmoregulation efficency. Many forms of flavobacterium and Mycobacterium. Along with issues of areomas. Even in the case of parasites, the ammount of salt needed is that of sea water. a practice seen from use in the past that causes extreme distress in fish under this treatment. Parasites are also evolving agianst treatment with Salt as are bacteria.

There are many fish that are intolerant to it. Live plants do not do well with it. Many of the fresh water shrimps can not tollerate it. Proper treatments for the proper diseases and conditions are very important. A sudden change in osmotic pressure can put great stress on the osmoregulatory system of a fish. Salt does just that.

I know for many it is easy to say. Ive done it it works or whatever... But it doesnt nessacarily make it the best thing to be doing. Lots of things have change. I can remember in my 40 years of this hobby back in the 70's the thing was to NOT change your water. It was believed that the more your water aged the better. How wrong they were as we know now.

I think good discussions on this topic are great to have as well as others its how we grow.

BTW if your curious where Salt -Sodium Chloride was adapted from. It has been froom the Aquaticulture for fish farming for food. Its something that was thought to be able to be used to prolong the life of the fish enough to fatten them up to slaughter and sell later. The health and longevity of the fish were never a concern. It was adapted as a product to sell.

There are many other more benificial products out there. Such as Magnesium Sulfate. It does have various properties for benifical use. It can increase the GH of the water. Its has Diuretic properties if needed. It has properties of a laxative if needed and it has more then 250 enzymes for the water.

Of course I only recommend its use for various ailments.



And for Chad if you have issues with me Im unsure what they are. I would hope you or anyone in the name of the hobby would welcome and and all quality discussion.

There is still much more info on the subject if anyone would like to hear more or discuss further. Im currently working with a College on several aspects of fish and Specifically Cichlids in various things such as Behaviour and the study of intelligence in cichlids. As well as the ability to change colors the way they do so rapidly. And of course My long time specialty diseases and conditions. Its going to be a very interesting research program I do intend on sharing.

 

[PokeSephiroth]

I haven't used aquarium salt in my personal tanks for a while now, HOWEVER... I do still have some aquarium salt stashed away for such an occasion... but I usually end up being lazy with using salt, so it kinda just sits there... but, like I said... it's there for a "just in case" bases, and.... if I'm not lazy to use it LOL...

That being said, I guess my fish don't get sick enough for me to really do anything, or to the point where I think salt is needed. I have used salt in the past to treat for ich, but I've also treated ich with a combination of things, be it raising temps, or using Kordon's Ich Attack (not to be confused with Kordon's Rid Ich). Which is hit and miss for some people. So who knows? =P

Going back to the topic, yes we do use salt at Aquarium Co-Op, and I have no objection to using salt for treating certain ailments.

Some people say that platties and mollies prefer living in water that contains trace amounts of salt (while some people even think that mollies can live in full marine water, if acclimated properly. Whoa.)

 

[cichlid-gal]

Great input folks. Given what's been shared and the fact that my fish are super healthy without the salted tank and that I have naturally hard water (9/10 kh/gh) I see no reason to add salt to my tanks on a regular basis.

I do however feel that I will continue to use salt under conditions where I have a fish with superficial injuries like scrapes and such as has been stated and seen by many, the addition of the salt, by causing "irritation" increases the slime coat which in reality assists the fish with abrasions to heal faster.

As for the ICH treatment....I have yet to have a case of ICH so I don't know about that or how it works. I think I would attempt the high heat/salt treatment prior to trying medication options.

I did find the discussion very interesting with regard to fish that are natural hardwater fish and fish that are softwater fish. I maintain fish that like hardwater as I've found that fish needing softwater eventually weaken and die in my water. I also am of the notion that trying to "manage" my water will become more work than I am ready to put into my hobby. Doing 50% water changes weekly it would be very difficult to maintain any type of "adjustment" to my water.

Again...thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts and views on this. As mentioned in the discussion there are always things that crop up that make us question our practices and if what we are doing is right. It's good to hear from other hobbyists what is working for them and what their thoughts are on the subject.

 

[PokeSephiroth]

Well said, Donna :-D

 

[cichlid-gal]

Thanks Angelo

 

[Anonymous]

Your comments are not helping this thread Chad. I suggest refraining from such comments here on the forum. We are here to share ideas and make the hobby better.

-Cory

 

[Madness]

Your comments are not helping this thread Chad. I suggest refraining from such comments here on the forum. We are here to share ideas and make the hobby better.

-Cory

I couldnt agree more. That is why we are here.

 

[cichlid-gal]

Your comments are not helping this thread Chad. I suggest refraining from such comments here on the forum. We are here to share ideas and make the hobby better.

-Cory

Chad...I love having you on the forum and don't want to see you leave.

Often when we are speaking in the forum content things are misunderstood. It's the nature of the new social environment. Having spent years on forums and in gaming groups I've seen the best and the worst. The best happens when we can all move on, recognize that there was a misunderstanding, followup privately to each other to clarify things, keep an open mind, and just continue to have fun.

I too have troubles sometimes but I keep coming back cause its a great place to socialize with other local fishkeepers.

 

[dwarfpike]

I did find the discussion very interesting with regard to fish that are natural hardwater fish and fish that are softwater fish.  I maintain fish that like hardwater as I've found that fish needing softwater eventually weaken and die in my water.  I also am of the notion that trying to "manage" my water will become more work than I am ready to put into my hobby.  Doing 50% water changes weekly it would be very difficult to maintain any type of "adjustment" to my water.

This is a big thing for me to prevent burn out, which as happened once before for me. When you add several hours worth of time tweaking the water for multiple tanks, you get tired of it real fast. Since I'm a lazy fishkeeper (hence prefering HOB or Sumps over those nasty time consuming canisters), lately I still to what works in the tap water. Hence SA and Westie cichlids when I live on the west side of the state, but while I was in Spokane I kept Centrals.