Algae battle

[dleblanc]

I've been through this before with my 55, so I'm not in a huge panic, but here's the deal - the 180 has been running about a month, plants haven't really gotten a good start. Tank is 24" deep, I have a lot of light available. First started getting regular green algae, got plecos, got much less green algae. We now have détente with the green algae.

Then there is the brown, filamentous algae. It likes to grow on some of the plants, especially the dwarf sword. It grows into long, loose pieces, comes off easily when disturbed, or I get out the python. The python has been my main countermeasure - vacuum it out.

I began by learning how to program the lights - they ramp up and down over the day, only get full light 4 hours a day, reasonably bright a couple more hours on either end. Reducing light seems to be standard approach for this, also cut back on fertilizer on the theory that algae are consuming nutrients. Speaking of which, water quality is really good - maybe 5 ppm nitrates.

On the advice of another friend, turned down the lights even further. Now some of the Amazon swords are melting, so that's not good. Perhaps too far the other way? Thoughts on the fertilizer?

I know once I get the plants well established and the tank settles in, it will be all good, but getting there will take some patience.

 

[tazeat]

Light type/wattage? CO2? Fertilizer schedule? Substrate inert or nutrient rich? How many plants?

Take your time, in the beginning definitely stay easy on the lights. More plants is easier than fewer plants typically. Fertilizer generally I've found more (but not too much!) is better than not enough for fending off algae, especially PO4 with regards to the hard green algae that builds up on the glass (GSA).

 

[dleblanc]

BuildMyLED 67k and 10k, I think these are the high output models. Fertilizer that I'm using on the other happy planted tanks is Flourish and Flourish Trace, dose as recommended on bottle. Substrate is from aquariumplants.com, some people think it is same as Turface, I think it may have added nutrients. Tank is CO2 injected, pH is controlled at 6.65 to 6.7. Should be running about 24 ppm CO2.

There are 4 large Amazon swords, different varieties, 10 bunches of dwarf sword, and a half dozen reineckii that seem to be struggling.

Between the plecos and my scraper pad, the green stuff is at a standstill, so not especially concerned with that. The icky brown stuff is my main headache.

I should also borrow the PAR meter, and find out how much light I actually have.

 

[tazeat]

I'd add in NPK macro nutrients especially with CO2, Flourish and Flourish Trace are pretty much just micro supplements. So my guess is the plants are not really getting much for fertilizer especially with high light and CO2. I don't have anything as big as a 180, but extrapolating what I dose in my 55, I'd try working up to Flourish Nitrogen 20mL and Flourish Phosphorous 15mL or so every 2-4 days. Adjust as needed once things get in a rhythm.

I stick with Seachem ferts, they just work for me and in the large bottles are still pretty reasonable, but you can mix your own or try other brands, but plants need NPK + Micros to thrive in my experience.

 

[Anonymous]

Just sounds like there is a bunch of "new tank" stuff going on here. All my systems when new went through a stage where algaes developed, diatoms grew all over everything. The tank may take time to balance itself out. Adjusting light, fertilizers, ect probably won't make it go away , it's just adding to the imbalance.

 

[tazeat]

That's probably true too. Ease in to the lights, ease in to whatever fertilizer regimine you go with, time is usually the best answer. Definitely avoid drastic changes.

 

[dleblanc]

The green algae was successfully countered with plecos. Is there anything that eats the brown crud?

BTW, this is going to be home for discus in about a month, so is running 86 degrees. I'm attempting to stick to roughly Amazonian species, though I don't remember anything that ate this stuff in any other tank.

It is 'new tank' stuff, so I'm sure it will pass, but maybe there's better ways to handle it. What I think I'll do for now is to go back to my normal fertilizer schedule that works in my 55 - had the algae really kicking the plants pretty badly in there, turned down the lights, added water lettuce, and started with fertilizer - it turned right around.

Speaking of which, one option would be to take a very large, mature sword from the 55, put it in the 180. It is kind of overwhelming the 55 anyway. However, the 55 has a fair number of common brown snails, and I'd prefer not to transfer those. Thoughts on whether moving a large plant in would be a good idea, and what to do about the snails?

 

[LuminousAphid]

I would also throw in a suggestion of 'more is better' on the plant side, but that's a lot of money to densely plant a large tank like that. I think if you just keep things stable, stop changing stuff for a while, and keep manually removing from plants you should see slow improvement. I think if you keep changing things, the plants will continue to struggle adapting to fluctuating conditions and will eventually wither and die. I struggle with this myself because I have small tanks, but with a larger tank at least you have the benefit of large volume and therefore more stable parameters over time. I'd say just keep a consistent lighting schedule and wait on it, you will probably see things stabilize and improve over the next month

 

[Anonymous]

The brown stuff (diatoms) should go away after a while on its own. I've never heard of any critter getting rid of it.

I can not see anything wrong with transferring the large plant over. Removing snails usually consists of picking them off, rinsing the plant throughly, and perhaps spraying the plant with a light bleach solution and letting it sit for a few minutes then soaking the plant in a declorinator solution/ rinsing off real well. That should successfully remove any snail.

 

[dleblanc]

I should probably do that - it is crowding out the 55 anyway.

It has been interesting - had to be out of town Thursday evening through Monday afternoon. Did a last vacuum, let it run. Came back to a _bunch_ of the brown crud. Vacuumed it out, fertilized, and it has not made a resurgence yesterday. I might be winning the battle. We'll see.

It is funny how it seems to prefer certain plants. The dwarf swords in particular. They must have been grown emersed, since once planted, the existing leaves all died, a bunch of new growth came in, and they propagated. The algae seems to love the dead leaves. Almost makes me want to set up a plants-only tank to age in new plants.

The reineckii you gave me is doing better - and I took two of them and put them in 2 other tanks to hedge my bets.

 

[BHolmes]

Flourish
Guaranteed Analysis
Total Nitrogen 0.07%
Available Phosphate ( P2O5) 0.01%
Soluble Potash 0.37%
Calcium (Ca) 0.14%
Magnesium (Mg) 0.11%
Sulfur (S) 0.2773%
Boron (B) 0.009%
Chlorine (Cl) 1.15%
Cobalt (Co) 0.0004%
Copper (Cu) 0.0001%
Iron (Fe) 0.32%
Manganese (Mn) 0.0118%
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.0009%
Sodium (Na) 0.13%
Zinc (Zn) 0.0007%

F. Trace
Guaranteed Analysis
Boron (B) 0.0028%
Cobalt (Co) 0.00003%
Copper Cu) 0.0032%
0.0032% Water Soluble Copper (Cu)
Manganese (Mn) 0.0085%
0.0085% Water Soluble Manganese(Mn)
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.0003%
Zinc (Zn) 0.0169%
0.0169% Water Soluble Zinc (Zn)
Rubidium (Rh) 0.000008%
Nickel (Ni) 0.000003%
Vanadium (V) 0.000002%

You're technically gaining nothing by dosing Flourish and Flourish Trace as your only "nutrients". You basically almost have a high-tech/high-light tank with no ferts. That's a big problem when you want a balanced ecosystem.

Here are the target parameters that you need based on EI, high light, and pressurized CO2:
Macro Ferts
7.5ppm of NO3 (Already established by your tanks nitrogen cycle so dosing is not needed)

Dosing 1.269g of KH2PO4 (dosing Mon/Wed/Fri):
1.3ppm of PO4 (target)
0.54ppm of K
0.42ppm of P

Dosing 10.568g of K2SO4 (dosing Mon/Wed/Fri):
6.96ppm of K (target is 7.5ppm, so 0.54 + 6.96 = 7.5)
2.85ppm of S

Micros
Dosing 5.217g Plantex CSM+B (dosing Tue/Thu/Sat):
0.5ppm of Fe (Target)
0.06ppm of B
0.0069ppm of Cu
0.11ppm of Mg
0.14ppm of Mn
0.0038ppm of Mo
0.03ppm of Zn
0.02 dGH

Dosing 34.548g of MgSO4 (dosing Sun after 50% WC):
5.0ppm of Mg (Target)
6.6ppm of S
0.28 dGH

Dosing 43.906g of CaSO4 (dosing Sun after 50% WC):
15.0ppm of Ca (target)
12.0ppm of S
2.09 dGH

If you cross check the ppm from EI to both of the Flourish doses you can see that it is grossly under par with the set standard for your setup (note: ppm=%).
Flourish is very expensive compared to dry ferts. You can also pre-mix dry ferts in a solution so that you can have a similar ease of use like Flourish. Once you max out ferts with EI and max out CO2 with a pressurized system, light becomes your only factor. Light will be extremely easy to adjust with ferts and CO2 at their correct parameters. Do you have a picture of your tank?

 

[dleblanc]

This is good information, but I think you may have your math a bit off. 1 ppm == 1 mg/L, and I'd have to look into how they figure percent (percent of what?), but 1000 ppm should be 0.1%. Unless I've got something mixed up, then the SeaChem phosphate would be 100 ppm. Trying to extrapolate that out to your target ppm, which I'd assume is based on the whole tank would take a little bit of figuring. It runs roughly 200 gallons total, counting sump, backing out substrate and wood.

My other tank that is set up similarly - same lights, pressurized CO2 with target CO2 at around 25-30 ppm gets fertilized the same way, and is overgrown. This is a much deeper tank at 24", and is just getting started.

I need to get some pictures - currently, the algae has completely abated, I turned the light back up in stages by 10%. I have the light ramp up and down over the course of the day - it is only full strength for 2 hours, between 80% and 100% for another two hours on either side of 'midday'.

Thanks very much for the details - you have some gorgeous tanks!

 

[jrygel]

It sounds like everyone involved in the discussion here already knows this, but in case someone else comes along who doesn't:

Keep in mind that for most tanks, the fish, their food, and a working nitrogen cycle combine to provide a pretty significant source of nitrate and phosphorous, which are two of the three main macro ferts. The bio-load of a new tank vs. an established tan can make a huge difference in how much N and P are available to the plants. This could explain part of why dosing only trace ferts. is working well in your 55 but isn't working yet in the new tank - it may just need the N and P that the livestock will be producing.

 

[Anonymous]

^ good stuff right there.