Framers and Structural Engineers Required!

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Anonymous

Guest
plaamoo said:
No pine, Doug fir! Select boards without a crown. It will be well worth your while to buy quality lumber. The top needs to be flat. If it's not you'll need to run a planer over it.
 :spoton: I agree.

I did this too, digging through piles of lumber picking out the straightest pieces. When I was done with mine it was off no more than 1/16 measured from every angle.  I was proud of myself :)
 

CMooreCichlids

New Member
fishNAbowl said:
I scanned through this thread. Pretty sure this wasn't mentioned. With your current design above you will have about 20 inches between each support. This is very little clearance to slide large equipment in such as a sump, be able to maneuver it around into position, then you will have to wiggle yourself in there for the plumbing and what not. I would either use pine 4X4's or double up 2X4's for the 4 corners and then use them in the middle @ the 4 foot mark. One in the back, front and one right in the middle. I then would frame around the posts using 2X4s. After it's framed corner to corner I would use 2X4's on the bottom front to back. This is what I would also use to support the middle support. Then lay in a sheet of ply wood for the floor of the stand. Then stain and seal the floor and anywhere else that's going to be tough to get to before continuing. You will notice after the flooring is in the structure will be solid (don't forget to square everything up before laying the floor).
Also, all the 2X4's need to be installed with crown up. The weight of the tank and water will lay the structure flat. For the top you could mimic the floor framing design. Then choose to either slap ply wood on the top or just leave it open.
For a nice finish you can choose to use finished ply wood and 1X4's for the skin. This is what I did on my 7' stand. Then finish up with any type of stain/sealant you want.
You may have to add supports for doors if you are going to hang them, or you can choose removable panels for the front using industrial clips or magnets.

This design will allow you access to slide a much larger sump in or multi sumps in if you wish.
And I may be kidnapping you soon fishNAbowl.  :twisted: 

I will need to rework the plans for this stand, and see about replacing the 2x6's with doubled up 2x4's. I know it may be overkill to have so many structural supports, but I want to be able to park my wife's SUV on this thing without it budging.
 

CMooreCichlids

New Member
fishNAbowl said:
plaamoo said:
No pine, Doug fir! Select boards without a crown. It will be well worth your while to buy quality lumber. The top needs to be flat. If it's not you'll need to run a planer over it.
 :spoton: I agree.

I did this too, digging through piles of lumber picking out the straightest pieces. When I was done with mine it was off no more than 1/16 measured from every angle.  I was proud of myself :)
This is a big issue...Its damn near impossible to find all of the lumber needed for a job like this when none of the pieces are straight. I'll have to spend half a day in a lumber yard just to get a handful of straight pieces.
 

jrygel

New Member
Umm,  I'm a licensed structural engineer and this is (kind of) overbuilt.  I say (kind of) because I'd frame it differently, but the way that you've drawn it, you don't actually have a lot more wood in there than you need.  The bending capacity of frame is proportional to the square of the depth, so you will get a lot farther going with frame members that are deeper than 2x4s.  i.e. if you used 2x6s, you could almost remove all of the interior columns:  the allowable stress for No. 1 grade doug fir under wet use with permanent loads is 918 psi, if you space your joists at 16" they would be at 931 psi, so if you went with 12" spacing, you'd be good to go.  That being said, deflection could be a problem (I calculate it at about 1/16" under that load).  For peace of mind I'd probably go with select structural grade 4x6s or, even better, 2x8s.

This isn't really that much load when it comes down to it, because it's distributed across a large area, even being very conservative, I'd say your load might be 220 pounds per square foot (psf), the water alone is 187 psf; this is similar to the loading for a commercial storage (filing) room or library.  Most of the heavy industrial structures I work with are designed for 600-1000 psf.

You need to make sure to pay attention to the lumber grade.  There is a HUGE difference in the load carrying capacity of the framing depending on the lumber - 'stud' grade lumber is barely over half the capacity of No. 1 grade.   I wouldn't even consider building something like this with less than No. 1 grade lumber, select structural would be better.  A lot of standard lumber yards don't have anything better than 'stud' grade in 2x4 and sometimes 2x6, but even Lowes or Home Depot usually carry 'No. 1 & Better' for 2x8's or larger.

There are additional reductions in the capacity if you have notches cut in the framing or use incised (pressure treated) lumber.  An additional benefit of this is that usually the higher grade stuff is straighter.

-Justin
 

CMooreCichlids

New Member
jrygel said:
Umm,  I'm a licensed structural engineer and this is (kind of) overbuilt.  I say (kind of) because I'd frame it differently, but the way that you've drawn it, you don't actually have a lot more wood in there than you need.  The bending capacity of frame is proportional to the square of the depth, so you will get a lot farther going with frame members that are deeper than 2x4s.  i.e. if you used 2x6s, you could almost remove all of the interior columns:  the allowable stress for No. 1 grade doug fir under wet use with permanent loads is 918 psi, if you space your joists at 16" they would be at 931 psi, so if you went with 12" spacing, you'd be good to go.  That being said, deflection could be a problem (I calculate it at about 1/16" under that load).  For peace of mind I'd probably go with select structural grade 4x6s or, even better, 2x8s.

This isn't really that much load when it comes down to it, because it's distributed across a large area, even being very conservative, I'd say your load might be 220 pounds per square foot (psf), the water alone is 187 psf; this is similar to the loading for a commercial storage (filing) room or library.  Most of the heavy industrial structures I work with are designed for 600-1000 psf.

You need to make sure to pay attention to the lumber grade.  There is a HUGE difference in the load carrying capacity of the framing depending on the lumber - 'stud' grade lumber is barely over half the capacity of No. 1 grade.   I wouldn't even consider building something like this with less than No. 1 grade lumber, select structural would be better.  A lot of standard lumber yards don't have anything better than 'stud' grade in 2x4 and sometimes 2x6, but even Lowes or Home Depot usually carry 'No. 1 & Better' for 2x8's or larger.

There are additional reductions in the capacity if you have notches cut in the framing or use incised (pressure treated) lumber.  An additional benefit of this is that usually the higher grade stuff is straighter.

-Justin
Ahh man, I shouldnt have tried reading this after work. Now I'm gonna have to read this like six more times before I understand half of it!

Thanks for the info, Justin. I'm gonna have to chew on this for a while before making changes to the plans.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Here's some snap shots of the stand I built. It probably won't help with structural integrity questions since this tank is only 140 gallons. But it may help on 'how to finish' . I have no degrees in engineering. I just looked how others made their stands, a bit of internet reading and went to town.

This stand is 7 feet long and about 20 inches wide.



2 2X4's where used on each corner. The middle part in the front is 10inches. I used framing 2X4's 10" apart and the skin of the stand is finished 1" paneling.



This thing ended up being stout. The way the floor is attached and interlocked into the frame, and the way I interlocked the skin this design is completely solid.  The front middle support was installed mainly for the doors I never installed. I also used a router and rounded all the corners of the wood paneling skin.

If you decide to put a skin on your stand this can be counted for in structural strength. 4X4's on the corners, and an outside skin on the ends using 3/4 or 1" solid wood paneling , or even a quality plywood is going to beast up the strength quite considerably.   Same for a middle piece like my stand. If I was going to make a stand for a 8' tank. I would make a middle section 20" - 24" wide using 4X4's or doubled up 2X4's then cover them with a 3/4 -1" skin of solid wood or a quality plywood. Or you could go with a 3 door design, placing 4X4's or doubled up 2X4's every 2 1/2 feet (roughly). 24" should be more than enough opening to slide 1 or 2 fat sumps underneath.

At the time when I was putting the skin on my stand I constantly measured for trueness. A skin will make the design completely solid..
 
I see the steel idea is somewhat dead, yet being a machinist I must advocate for the sweet stuff! You could end up using a lot less material and get a stand that is twice as stout and with the right finish coating could outlast the tank. Sure, you will probably spend a little more on material. I also happen to weld for a hobby!  :D 
 

CMooreCichlids

New Member
Addicted2CAs said:
I see the steel idea is somewhat dead, yet being a machinist I must advocate for the sweet stuff! You could end up using a lot less material and get a stand that is twice as stout and with the right finish coating could outlast the tank. Sure, you will probably spend a little more on material. I also happen to weld for a hobby!  :D 
I really would prefer a steel stand, but having been quoted $1200 for the stand its kinda out of my reach right now.

I was even looking into getting the material separately, and ordering enough 2" tube steel is still going to cost twice as much (or more) as the lumber and materials. This isn't even taking into account the finish coating materials.

Addicted2CAs, if you got a sweet hook up to help with a steel stand I'd be more than willing to entertain the idea of getting some metal working done. I'm still toiling over the design of the wood stand, and whether I can reach the height I'm wanting for the sump system, or if I'll need to make a short stand with the sump system on the side of the tank.
 
I too am a strong sump and wet/dry guy and it makes ever wood stand I make tough to design around this. Cool part about a steel stand is that a lot less material is used, making way for more design ideas to hold and position your sumps. If you really want to go all in, I'd consider a ball bearing sled that your sumps sit on, so come maintenance time you could open the side door of the stand and slide the whole deal out. Just a thought! This is my favorite part about the hobby! I too am a strong sump and wet/dry guy and it makes ever wood stand I make tough to design around this.
 
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