Columnaris, Saprolegnia or Fungus??? Help!

flamechica

New Member
Last Thurs, I bought fish from a store that I had never been to before. When I got home, I started my typical float and acclimate ritual. When I went to put some of the tank water in the bag, one of the fish was upside down. He was alive, but barely. He died before the acclimation was over. That should've been my sign right there to figure out a different plan for all these new fish, but I thought maybe somehow he got squished in the corner of the bag during transport or something. Then, yesterday morning, I found another one dead, but while I was scooping him out, I noticed that my air tubing was covered in some weird white slimy stuff. I bumped it with the net while trying to scoop the dead fish and it flaked off and started to go everywhere in the tank. I thought....hmm...gonna have to clean that up carefully since I don't know what the heck that is! My first thought was it must be a fungus of some sort, but wasn't sure how it got there....other than the new fish. This tank was set up last week with seeded media and none of my other tanks have this crud. So, I grabbed a cloth and tried to wrap it around the tubing and catch as much of it as I could. Then I grabbed the fish net and tried to catch as many of the floaters as I could. After I did this I carefully examined the fish in the tank. The new fish are so small....the smalled corydoras I have ever seen, but I did happen to notice that one of them have these tiny white dots on him and his barbels look more like a full mustache instead of barbels. So, I immediately treated the tank with Pima Fix, thinking this fungus came from the fish. Well, then this whole mess started bugging me and I got to googling. The first thing that comes up is Columnaris or Cotton Mouth....which sounds like a NIGHTMARE!!! Another similiar thing that came up is Saprolegnia, which also sounds like no fun. Both seem like they can be treated very well with salt....however, this tank is corydoras only.....which means salt is out. But, with both of these illnesses, I didn't find much about stuff growing inside the tank too. So, I am at a loss. I did read with both of them that you need to treat ASAP and they both seem to have different treatment regimens. I feel like I am going to lose all these fish if I don't do something FAST!!! This morning, all the fish are extremely stressed. Even the biggest adult I have. I don't see anything on him, but he is racing around and freaking out, which is not like him at all. He is usually very calm.
 

flamechica

New Member
The plants that are in that tank are also in my 7g tank. I split the stems up evenly between the 2 tanks. I did have a death in the 7g last night. However, I believe what happened there is that I didn't have the intake thing snapped on good enough and the fish bumped into it and got sucked up into the filter. There is no sign on the white stuff growing in this tank and the remaining fish doesn't have any signs of this white stuff either.

I was off to the aquarium co-op for help, but then remembered I have my neice today and they don't leave me a car seat, so I am stuck here until they pick her up.
 

Cory

Administrator
Staff member
I find that corydoras can tolerate a decent amount of salt. If it was me. I would treat the tank with 1 tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons and use erythromycin.

I've taken corydoras to as much as 1 tablespoon per gallon, but after about a tablespoon per 2 gallons, it is hard on them.
 

flamechica

New Member
I don't think something came through all the way on that first paragraph.... So 1 tablespoon to how many gallons? I really don't want to stress them out anymore than I have to do I would prefer not to go to 1tb per gallon or 2 gallons (like stated in the second paragraph), unless I absolutely have to.

Do you have erythromycin at the shop?
 

Cory

Administrator
Staff member
Sorry about that, was typing on my phone.

1 Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons. Yes we do stock erythromycin at the shop.
 

flamechica

New Member
No problem. Happens to me all the time on my phone... Sometimes say some really embarrassing stuff. Auto correct and swype can be killer. Lol!

Ok. I have aquarium salt, so I will add that now and when my neice gets picked up later tonight, I will be on my way to get the erythromycin. However, since I dosed with Pima fix yesterday, should I do a water change before adding the salt and getting the erythromycin?
 

Madness

Well-Known Member
Staff member
I must interject here, the old way of adding salt is not a good idea. Sure it may have worked for some but in the end you are opening up a can on all of your fish. It is a bit long but please read. Yes I am talking about ICK in the first part, but regardless of the issues the concept of adding salt is the same.

In the last 10 years the expansion as discovered by the University of Florida and University of Georgia Ich strains that have now even become more common and will survive past 93 degrees F with only the mass amounts of reproduction happening. I would always, always, always Opt for a treatment that is the LEAST invasive least potential for other issues. Using heat and salt or just one or the other can have many of its own risks. This is why I recommend Keep temps at a normal range of 79 to 80F and use a quality proper treatment. Why? Because the use of Heat as mentioned above in not 100% a guarantee it will cure as resistant strains have become more common over the years. Also higher heat promotes a even higher loss of dissolved Oxygen that no matter how much agitation you add to the tank it cannot hold anymore O2. Ich works by means of suffocation by starving the fish for Oxygen due to pulling valuable cells of blood and fluids carrying Oxygen rich supply to the fish. The first place for attack by ich is the gills In response to this the fish cause a thickening and swelling of the gill tissue, This reduces Oxygen even further. Now we have a double hit with Ich causing reduced blood stream O2 and fish causing reduced Oxygen intake as a defense of protecting the gill tissue. Next issue of concern with this is eventually the fish can have a separation of the outer layer of the gill tissue and thus the loss of valuable fluids containing O2 into the system as further defense mechanism against ich. Again, adding salt depletes dissolved O2 and increasing temps will cause the rapid degassing of the water with no real way to actually hold more O2. The next issues are many species are not capable to handle these intense heat and lack of oxygen. While in some places water temps can rise specific fish have adapted like Discus at 86 degrees but not all and in fact not most can deal with it for sustained times. Next is the thriving of bacterial issues far more badly then Ich will ever be. The higher heat promotes the bacterial infections to thrive and secondary infections are quite common. Many of them will make you wish you had ich again.. Using proper treatments with antibacterial active agents that also affect Ich are a better preventative against these issues arising as a secondary while easier at killing ich. I can list probably more than a few bunches of fish that cannot deal with higher temps. Really when it breaks down to it. While heat has been able to work.. (btw it doesn't Kill ich it sterilizes the reproduction cycle at temps at certain level.. But even that is now shot down as resistant strains reproduce well above 93f) But the stress factors involved in the use of heat rated treatments Cause higher spiked levels of cortisol's in the body. Reduced uptake of ions and cautions for proper redox potential as the blockers in the blood stream push the immune response to its limits. I will always, always recommend using a proper medication treatment for ich where its available due to the lower stressors and effects on the fish its environment and the potentials for other issues that are far worse.

A little about Sodium chloride. In chemistry salts are ionic compounds that result from the neutralization reaction of an acid and a base. They are composed of cat ions basically positively charged ions and anions that are negative ions so that the product is electrically neutral [This is the Dictionary and chemistry definition of “Salt chemistry”]. There are mineral salts for most minerals. But for the purpose of this discussion we are dealing solely with common salt what we know as table salt or rock salt or aquarium salt. This salt is a mineral that is composed primarily of sodium chloride NaCl a chemical compound belonging to the larger class of ionic salts. It is essential for animal life in small quantities yes. But it is harmful to animals and plants in excess. Marine salt has other minerals in it too but it is still salt for the purpose of this discussion. Salt is an irritant, which causes the fish to secrete more mucus particularly in the gills where osmoregulation is occurring. And if salt is not pre-dissolved carefully it can give fish bad burns this is especially true for scale less fish such as loaches many catfish and some types of eels and other sensitive fish. Salt makes the water denser than the same water without salt. The aquarium contains water. The bodies of fish and plant leaves also contain water, just as we humans do. We are approximately 70% water. The water in the aquarium and the water in the fish/plant are separated by a semi-permeable layer which is the cell. Water can and continually does pass through this cell. Fresh water fish do not drink because they don’t have to in order to take in water. When either body of water is more dense then the other less-dense body of water, water will pass through the membrane to equalize the water on both sides. The fish must control this process through what is termed osmoregulation. This is where the salt creates issues in this function. Fish burn much of their energy trying to regulate Osmotic function. It’s different for Salt water fish as they are constantly drinking the water.

Something’s to understand about freshwater Fish Physiology. Salt definitely interferes with the osmotic regulation of fish and plants. It should be left alone. Nature regulated that part itself, by creating freshwater, brackish and saltwater fish. The vast majority of freshwater fish live in waters having no measurable salinity and this has been crucial in the evolution of their physiology. Fresh water fish differ physiologically from salt water fish in several respects: their gills must be able to diffuse dissolved gasses while keeping the salts in the body fluids inside their scales reduce water diffusion through the skin and they also have well developed kidneys to reclaim salts from body fluids before excretion. Freshwater fish have physiological mechanisms that permit them to concentrate salts within their bodies in a salt-deficient environment marine fish on the other hand, excrete excess salts in a hypertonic environment. Fish that live in both environments retain both mechanisms. Freshwater fish concentrate salts to compensate for their low salinity environment. They produce very diluted but copious urine of up to a third of their body weight each day to rid themselves of excess water, while conducting active uptake of ions at the gills. The kidneys of freshwater fish have two functions osmoregulation and hematopoiesis, which is the formation of blood cellular components. Each fish species is adapted to the range of salts in its habitat water, and the kidneys function well within that range. The kidneys have to work harder whenever the salt content of the water in which the fish is living is greater than that of the fish’s preference, i.e. the natural habitat. The closer the water is to the species requirements the easier it will be for the fish to maintain proper osmotic levels. One of the myths about the benefit of regular addition of salt is that it allegedly maintains an osmoregulatory balance, in point of fact regular use of salt has the exact opposite effect and can cause bloating due to an osmotic imbalance. Another Myth is that salt is good for the fish to gain slime coat. While the fish does gain in slime coat its only due to a response to an irritation, a stressor that causes the fish to go into a protection mode to create higher slime levels. This is stress to the fish not beneficial.

Osmoregulation is the technical term for the physiological mechanism fish use to control the amount of salt and water in their bodily fluids. As the name suggests it's based on osmosis. Water is constantly passing through the cells of freshwater fish by osmosis in an attempt to equate the water inside the fish with the water in the aquarium. Freshwater fish regularly excrete this water through respiration and urination the average fish will urinate 30% of its body mass every day. The more salt in the aquarium water, the greater the strain on the fish's kidneys, which in turn adds to the fish's stress in attempting to maintain their internal stability. And salinity affects the amount of energy the fish must spend to maintain the physiological equilibrium the complex chain of internal chemical reactions that keep the pH of the fish’s blood steady its tissues fed and the immune system functioning. When salinity increases beyond what the fish is designed by nature to handle the fish must work harder and use more energy just to keep going. Laura Muha likens this to driving a car up a steep hill it takes more energy aka fuel to maintain the same speed as driving on level ground, and it causes more wear and tear. This increased energy output is wearing down the fish and the fish is not able to expend this crucial energy on other important functions. The growth rate is affected a shorter lifespan will usually result and there will be increased risk of various health problems along the way. BTW if you’re curious Laura Muha (that I referenced) is a renowned science writer in the biology of fish and does so for publications as such as Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine and other renowned writings.

Just some additional info for people about what most know as salt Sodium Chloride. Aka Table salt, Rock salt, Kosher salt, Regular salt, Aquarium Salt. It is a chemical. Many think it’s natural. And while it comes from mother earth. It is still listed as a chemical. Much like many other chemicals Like Hydrogen peroxide. Nothing more than H20 =Water and O2 oxygen. The thing to remember about Sodium Chloride is that fresh water fish spend their entire life burning much energy trying to remove fluid and Sodium from their bodies. This is the function of osmosis. By adding more sodium chloride you have now made the fish work even harder to keep osmotic balance. This can cause issues with higher salt exposure that decreases the fishes Immune system. It can cause issues with cortisols being out of balance. also note that Adding salt to the water ALSO decreases dissolved O2 levels as it becomes a dissolved solid in the water displacing the O2 and this is why Salt water has less dissolved O2 then Fresh water. Salt was a cure thought up by the aquaculture industry for fish farming for food. Where the longevity of the fishes life only matters enough to get them fat to harvest. Not like we keep fish in any way.
 

flamechica

New Member
Thanks, madness. I probably only understood about half of that. Lol. I wasn't planning on raising the temp in the tank as I had read that actually causes this to get worse, if it is indeed columnaris. Some recommended to lower the temp, but I keep my tank at 79/80 and I was worried lowering the temp would stress the fish even more. For whatever reason, most people's experiences that I could find, they had good luck with salt. Pretty much, what I have read about this crap, is once you see outward signs, you are pretty much screwed. Most people that posted on forums lost all or most of their fish. I'm kinda grasping at straws here because I am gonna be really discouraged if I lose all my fish. One of them, I have had for quite awhile and I was so happy that I finally had a tank where they were by themselves and my frogs weren't nipping at them thinking they were food and there was no threat of my pleco eating them, etc.... Then this happens. I used to keep my tanks somewhat brackish, until I got corys and it seemed like I had less health issues, but then again, I am usually better about not buying from places like this place I bought these guys from too. So, I don't know what to do.... I feel like I have lots of aeration (8.5in bubble Wand and hob filter) in the tank to combat the O2 that might be taken out by adding salt.... Either way, I do plan on getting the med that Cory suggested, so I wouldn't go a salt only approach, if I decide to add salt. Ugh.... I hate fishy diseases.... If I end up with one, I get something weird and one that tries to wipe out my whole tank. I wish this were just ich!
 

Cory

Administrator
Staff member
I've seen this debate come up a few times on here. I find that salt is an essential part of some aquarium treatments. I do think it can be misused by lots of people. However as a store there is no over the counter med I can buy that will get rid of velvet. Salt does that for me.

As someone who deals with illness a lot, I can tell you that salt is very useful used correctly. As for it doing damage to your fish. Realize that all wholesalers that I deal with already keep salt levels high in their systems. This is local, florida, over seas etc. So the level of 1 tablespoon per 5, will be much lower than what they were sitting in at the wholesalers for anywhere from 1 day to a month. Even the corydoras, knife fish, stingrays, etc All of it is sharing water at the wholesalers and receiving the same amount of salt.

Also when you discount meds/salt for fighting illnesses. Keep in mind that a wild caught fish vs a captive raised one is very different. For instance a wild caught strain of ick or a fluke etc. Are treated much easier than commercial strains. So when someone says, clout didn't get rid of flukes on my guppies. But clout got rid of flukes on my wild caught stingray both are true.

Meds/diseases/salts is a very complex subject and is primarily what a store makes their money on. If they can safely treat fish, they make money, if they don't, they kill them or customers get sick fish and lose them.
 

Madness

Well-Known Member
Staff member
flamechica said:
Thanks, madness. I probably only understood about half of that. Lol. I wasn't planning on raising the temp in the tank as I had read that actually causes this to get worse, if it is indeed columnaris. Some recommended to lower the temp, but I keep my tank at 79/80 and I was worried lowering the temp would stress the fish even more. For whatever reason, most people's experiences that I could find, they had good luck with salt. Pretty much, what I have read about this crap, is once you see outward signs, you are pretty much screwed. Most people that posted on forums lost all or most of their fish. I'm kinda grasping at straws here because I am gonna be really discouraged if I lose all my fish. One of them, I have had for quite awhile and I was so happy that I finally had a tank where they were by themselves and my frogs weren't nipping at them thinking they were food and there was no threat of my pleco eating them, etc.... Then this happens. I used to keep my tanks somewhat brackish, until I got corys and it seemed like I had less health issues, but then again, I am usually better about not buying from places like this place I bought these guys from too. So, I don't know what to do.... I feel like I have lots of aeration (8.5in bubble Wand and hob filter) in the tank to combat the O2 that might be taken out by adding salt.... Either way, I do plan on getting the med that Cory suggested, so I wouldn't go a salt only approach, if I decide to add salt. Ugh.... I hate fishy diseases.... If I end up with one, I get something weird and one that tries to wipe out my whole tank. I wish this were just ich!


If you could post some pics of the issue, to me it does not sound like Columnaris. And if it is, it can be cured quite easily with a lowering of the temps (74ish) and treating with a combo of triple sulfa and kanamyacin, or a combination of kanamyacin and Doxycycline.

But pictures will be far more helpful.
 

flamechica

New Member
Aquarium Co-Op said:
I've seen this debate come up a few times on here. I find that salt is an essential part of some aquarium treatments. I do think it can be misused by lots of people. However as a store there is no over the counter med I can buy that will get rid of velvet. Salt does that for me.

As someone who deals with illness a lot, I can tell you that salt is very useful used correctly. As for it doing damage to your fish. Realize that all wholesalers that I deal with already keep salt levels high in their systems. This is local, florida, over seas etc. So the level of 1 tablespoon per 5, will be much lower than what they were sitting in at the wholesalers for anywhere from 1 day to a month. Even the corydoras, knife fish, stingrays, etc All of it is sharing water at the wholesalers and receiving the same amount of salt.

Also when you discount meds/salt for fighting illnesses. Keep in mind that a wild caught fish vs a captive raised one is very different. For instance a wild caught strain of ick or a fluke etc. Are treated much easier than commercial strains. So when someone says, clout didn't get rid of flukes on my guppies. But clout got rid of flukes on my wild caught stingray both are true.

Meds/diseases/salts is a very complex subject and is primarily what a store makes their money on. If they can safely treat fish, they make money, if they don't, they kill them or customers get sick fish and lose them.

Ok. Good to know....I might throw some salt in there. My grandma swears by it and like I said I used to use it. I'm really at a loss at this point....just lost another one... :(

For the record, these fish did not come from your store, but I am sure the wholesaler practices for salt are probably about the same no matter where the fish came from.

Madness said:
If you could post some pics of the issue, to me it does not sound like Columnaris. And if it is, it can be cured quite easily with a lowering of the temps (74ish) and treating with a combo of triple sulfa and kanamyacin, or a combination of kanamyacin and Doxycycline.

But pictures will be far more helpful.

Well, I went to see if I could take pics of the one that was showing outward signs and he was dead. :( Whatever this is, it is killing them FAST! This is number 3 since I got them on Thursday. So, the best I've got is what little bit of the white crap that I couldn't get very easily off the air tubing without pulling it all out of my substrate and disrupting my sword and making a mess of things....



The reason I think it is columnaris is because the fish showing outward symptoms had what looked like white stuff in his barbels...kinda made it look like he had a thick mustache between the combo of his barbels and whatever this white stuff is. He was so tiny it was hard to tell anything else, but he did have tiny white polka dots on him too. These really were the smallest corys that I have ever seen in a fish store and the smallest ones I have ever had by far. They were a little less than 1/2 inch long.
 

Madness

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Can I suggest one thing, always put new fish in a quarantine tank for 6-8 weeks before introducing them to your main tank. Regardless of who you buy from. Unfortunately you are learning the hard way. And I still dont believe its Columnaris. I will check with a friend of mine, he is a microbiologist. You say your water parameters are fine, what is fine? Have you checked them since the dying started? What are/were the readings?
 

flamechica

New Member
Well, things were normal yesterday....

Nitrates 10
Nitrites 0
GH 300.....this just made a serious swing from 75 yesterday.... Could it be the Pima fix?
KH 20
ph 6.6

Everything but the GH, is about the same from yesterday's numbers. I only have test strips right now, so I will take a sample if I can make it to the Co Op tonight.
 

flamechica

New Member
And yeah, I will be figuring out a quarantine tank situation very soon.... After this mess. I've been pretty lucky with being real selective on where I buy my fish typically, but I got something real bad a few years ago that wiped out a whole tank too... Apparently I didn't learn my lesson that time.
 

Madness

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Oh u use test strips? So unreliable. Ill give an example, a friend of mine was using them and asked me why his fish were dying, he said his test strips read good. I took my liquid kit over and his readings were insanely bad. Those test strips are no good.

Id be willing to bet that your Ammonia and nitrites are reading very high.
 

Madness

Well-Known Member
Staff member
If u can not get a liquid test kit, I would advice you to take some water to your local fish store and have it tested.

Using medication on a tank where the parameters are unknown can cause more damage than the actual issue at hand.

All issues start with water parameters, and you need a decent test kit to get these accurate readings.

The slime on the hose screams water condition issue.
 
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