unknown desease on some cardinals

thecarl

Member
After my 20 gallon tank was treated for Ick, some of my Cardinals started showing some other problems.  Tank is at about 86°F with 1 table spoon of aquarium salt per 5 gallons of water (for the treatment of ick).  I recently did a water change without replacing the salt (50% change) but that was after this new problem showed up.   Any ideas?  Treatable?  Their red color has faded and they appear slightly bloated. Not all cardinals in the tank show this problem. Picture below:

IMG_0854-M.jpg
 

plaamoo

New Member
Possibly just a reaction to the heat & salt. Bring them both down, slowly. 50% is a big change. I'd do smaller amounts.
 

Madness

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Id say stress as well, and you should never use salt and heat for anything.

Check out this video on the treatment of ICH when you get the chance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IopYeLq_ftc

Not to mention salt is not good despite what you have always been told. Also, the higher the temps, the less oxygen in the water, not to mention most of your tanks bad bacteria and parasites (IE Columnaris) thrive in higher temps.

A little info on salt in the aquarium:
The idea that salt is a tonic for fish when it is kept in fish tanks at moderate levels (~ 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons) needs to be taken with a "grain of salt". If your fish are the most commonly kept community fish such as tetras, corys, angels or even the rasboras and most anabantids, these are fish largely from soft, acid, low-TDS (total dissolved solids) waters. The average tap water in the U.S and Europe is at least moderately hard and alkaline and is certainly not improved by increasing the "salt" concentration ... that very thing in which our water already differs most from the natural waters of these fish. Certainly many of these fish adapt well to our local water conditions and I am an advocate of adapting non-breeding fish to local conditions. This is far better for both fish and keeper than constantly battling see-sawing water parameters. But, acclimation to your tap water is one thing .... making your water worse than it already is however, is quite another.

The prophylactic use of salt to avoid common pathogens and parasites of fish by keeping some level of salt in the tank is also fraught with difficulty. True, the use of salt, usually accompanied by increased temperature, is an effective treatment for one of the most common ectoparasite which beginning aquarists encounter ... Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, or Ich. However, only the free-swimming form of this parasite is treatable. Neither the fish-embedded growth phase, nor the encysted multiplication stage that rests on or in the substrate is readily attacked by salt or any other medication. Thus prophylactic treatment is useless as it makes little sense to treat a non-infected tank on a chronic basis. Further, any treatment for parasitic infestation is a "medication" and thus the use of salt differs little from the use of any one of the other available Ick medications available at any LFS. The biggest difference in my opinion though, is that of all the medications available, salt is probably the least effective by comparison. As far as the use of salt to prevent bacterial pathogens .. BUNK!

another fallacy is the addition of NaCl for livebearers. These fish as a group are native to estuarine environments where the waters are likely to be hard and alkaline at least and may even be brackish. The addition of sodium chloride (i.e., "salt") does absolutely nothing to match these species native waters since salt as comprises only a small portion of the total "salt" concentration -- the more significant elements are calcium, magnesium, potassium, boron and silicate salts.

It's important to note that the term "salt" isn't limited to sodium chloride. Calcium and Magnesium salts of carbonate, silicate, phosphate and borate are actually more important to the biology of brackish water fish. If your water is at least moderately hard (GH and KH 8-12) then the addition of some NaCl will do no harm. On the other hand if your water is soft and acid the addition of sodium salt will do little good. You need increased buffering capacity as much as the addition of minerals to the water and NaCl alone does absolutely nothing in this regard. You will need to add crushed coral or aragonite, both of which are primarily calcium carbonate salts, in addition to 'salt' as sodium chloride or better still, use marine salt mix which contains the whole range of cations and anions (positively and negatively charged ions, such as Na+, Ca ++; Cl-, CO3--) found in the sea. This will adequately buffer your water and more closely match the native waters of most live bearers in question.

In fact, Doc Wellfish salt is aquarium salt; and aquarium salt, kosher salt, rock salt, table salt are all simply sodium chloride -- period.

With that said, I would say your fish is not happy about the salt treatment, or has developed something else do to the treatment and temps.
 

dwarfpike

Well-Known Member
While cardinals come from high temps in nature, they seem to be much more salt sensitive than a lot of other fish, including other tetras.
 

Madness

Well-Known Member
Staff member
dwarfpike said:
While cardinals come from high temps in nature, they don't seem to be much more salt sensitive than a lot of other fish, including other tetras.
Tetras exist in temps around 77/78 not 84. 84 is extremely high, and as for the salt, how do you know, have you asked them. ;)

I think the thread I posted pretty much summed it up on the salt adding idea. There is NO reason for it, and all it does is change the make-up of the water that your fish are not accustomed to. I use to be a big advocate of adding salt, not any more, not since I got more educated on the topic. Just because we have always done things a certain way, does not mean that it is correct. We all should be striving to learn everything, and not just assume that what we know is all that. I wondered why I was adding salt, and why everyone always says to do so. So I sought out experts in the field and articles written by professionals, and asked that question. I wanted to learn more and grow in this hobby, as I continue to do on a daily basis.
 

dwarfpike

Well-Known Member
Collection locales of cardinals in the Rio Negro are around 84F, some species in the llanos push 90F (green neons are collected with blue rams there). Most tetras don't like the high heat true, which is why you always hear the same four tetras recommended for discus or rams; cardinals, rummynose, green neons, and lemons as they all come from more elevated temps in nature.

I agree with the salt btw, just from personal experience it seems that blackwater fish seem more sensitive to it than whitewater or clearwater fish and that primary freshwater fish like tetras seem more sensitive than secondary freshwater fish like cichlids. Ancedotal observations to be sure, but then we can only prove 2+2=4 ancedotally.  ;)

edit: Yes, actually watching the video  :cheers: 
 

dwarfpike

Well-Known Member
Madness said:
Also, the higher the temps, the less oxygen in the water ...
Did you increase surface agitation to account for this? While it won't completely offset the lower oxygen levels, it could help reduce the stress by a touch and every little bit helps.
 

dwarfpike

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the video Madness, explained why Methylene Blue, Malachite Green, and several of the old stuff back when I first entered the hobby either didn't work or killed the fish before the ick did.  :spoton: 
 

thecarl

Member
Well, I did the salt trick because that's what was recommended for treating Ick to me when I asked a local store I trust. I've reduced heat, but at this point all of the faded cardinals have passed away now, so who knows what did it. The cardinals that did not become discolored are fine.
 
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