Something That Has Been Bothering Me

[PokeSephiroth]

So... this kinda has been bothering me, it's just how my brain works... but, it revolves around Ich.

Now, most of us know that Ich is pretty much always in our tanks, at all times... the only time it's noticeable is when our fish's immune systems go down, due to stress, etc...

So, with that in mind...

Let's assume that we have a fish that is infected, and you bring it into your home and now you have a dilemma... should you:

a) place the infected fish in a quarantine tank
or
b) place the fish directly in your show tank...

most of us would choose A, however, there are people out there that would end up just adding that infected fish straight into their show tanks...
So, I guess what I'm really trying to ask is, why would it matter if you add a fish that is infected with ich, to an established tank with other fish that aren't "infected" . . . since there are already ich parasites present in the show tank, then why would it matter if you add a fish that's already infected with it?

Do the ich parasites become stronger, and eventually infect the other fish that are in the same tank?

Does any of this make any sense? I suck at explaining things, but it's been bothering me for quite a while... I just haven't had the time or effort into making a topic about this because, it's rather silly... but I'd still like to get some answers out of it. LOL.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Let's see if I can explain this easier.

Let's assume that I have my 55 gallon tank, that has healthy fish, let's also assume that my tank has ich parasites... but since my fish are so healthy, the ich isn't attaching onto my fish...

So, now let's assume that I went to petco/petsmart, and bought some fish that CLEARLY have ich... I take them home, and add them directly to my fish tank...

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand...go.

 

[Madness]

OK, 2 things.

1) NEVER put anything new into your established tanks without quarantining it for a good 4-6 weeks at the least.

2) ICH has a life cycle, if ICH is unable to infect a host (your fish) it can not continue.  ICH does not live in the substrate/tank
Understanding Ich:
If you fully understand how ich lives, then it is easy to understand how to kill it. Ich is a parasite, which requires a host to live. Fish are the host.
Ich has three life stages. The first stage is the trophont stage, this is the feeding and growth stage of ich. It embeds on your fish, and essentially breaks down the cells around it and absorbs them. The fish's natural immune defenses will protect the trophont by encasing it with thickened skin and slime coat. It will grow until it reaches roughly the size and appearance of a grain of salt. At which time it sheds its cilia, drops off of the fish, finds a home in the substrate and develops an outer 'shell' this shell is virtually impenetrable, and therefore ich is still protected through the second stage of life.
The second stage is the Tomont stage in which it lays in the substrate and begins multiplying. It will divide as much as 2000 times inside its protective shell, but does not feed during this stage. After it has divided the hundreds of new ich parasites essentially 'hatch' and sprout cilia. The free swimmers are called theronts. They swim around trying to find a host (fish). If they find one they attach and begin the trophont stage all over again.   If not they die. During this free swimming stage, ich is vulnerable to medication and other treatments. Furthermore it will die quickly if it does not find a host.

 

[PokeSephiroth]

So, in theory... when people say that ich is always present in a fish tank, that's not entirely true, because ich will eventually die off, when they don't have a host to cling on to, ya?

So that answers my question, I think. It's now something I can file away, and not have to wonder about anymore. Ahhhh... peace at last. LOL

 

[Anonymous]

This subject is controversial for me. We've debated about this before. I've read past posts Madness has posted. I've read the  links that claim once ich is gone , it's gone. However, in my experience I've seen ich develop out of nowhere. Seriously- I would have no sickness for months. Then something would happen that compromises the systems integrity, water parameters flux, fish health drop a bit, then wham an outbreak.

Like you said some people quarantine,  others don't. I won't conscientiously put a sick fish into my 'show tanks' but I also don't quarantine most new fish because I figure whatever these fish might have as a sickness it's pretty much already in my system. If there is an outbreak of this parasite in my tanks I treat it and is gone within a couple days just like any other odd sickness that may develop. I figure if a fish gets sick in any of my tanks then it's sick, there isn't anything I can do that'll prevent whatever sickness from contaminating the rest of the system. It's all one system - fish, water, plants, filter. If I treat one I treat it all.

 

[anthony]

I think the confusion is ich is something that is always present in nature but in an open environment the ich feeds/breeds on  fish for awhile and falls off and free swims around and finds another host. That's why in nature fish get parasites on them all the time but they don't die. In a closed environment (100 gallon tank) when the parasites start breeding instead of swimming in all different directions to find different fish they all attach to your 10 fish and breed in 2 weeks you have a million of then confined within your tank. You can bring them home in fish store water/plants/on fish and it can take awhile before you can see them on your fish because buy the time you see the many white spots on your fish your tank is full of them. I used to hear that a drastic temp change will cause ich but I pretty sure the ich thrive in colder temps so if you have a few floating around in a tank it probably triggers spawning. Every time I've had ich it's after new fish are introduced sometimes 2 days or 1 month . It doesn't live in your aquarium until you introduce it.

 

[DMD123]

I have only had ich when I brought in new fish. I put them in quarantine before they go into my main tanks.

 

[Cory]

I definitely have had ick outbreak from healthy fish. Take a group of clown loaches out, put em in a bucket, let the water get to 60 degrees. Put them back into a tank Boom you'll have ick outbreak.

I'm not sure I'd say ich is always present. But in normal aquarium situations, I have definitely seen it develop of now where seemingly. Also some people say that snails could possibly carry it, but in a clown loach tank no snails would be allowed to live etc.

I think it's safer to advise people it's always present and tell them to avoid stress factors such as bad water quality etc.

Moving fish from a store to home is pretty stressful etc. Now I'd be against stores using it as a crutch to say ich should be common etc. A properly run store should have very few customers developing ich once the fish is at home assuming the water they went into was appropriately prepared.

 

[plaamoo]

From The Skeptical Aquarist, http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/ichthyophthirius

"Trophonts that are newly-attached to the epidermis are invisibly small. So a "carrier" fish is simply one that is invisibly carrying Ich, perhaps on its gills. There is no "dormant" independent, long-term encysted life stage separate from a host fish for Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. This is useful to know. You will often hear to the contrary. Dr. Peter Burgess, who took Ichthyophthirius multifiliis as his Ph.D. subject at Plymouth University, mentioned among Ich "old wives' tales" that "It's present in all aquariums." "What utter rubbish" noted Dr. Burgess (in the November 2001 Practical Fishkeeping). Brits don't mince words."

 

[Cory]

So again in a practical situation in your aquarium how can you be sure ick is not present? You'd have to have every fish looked at under a microscope etc.

So let's say there is 1 active cyst in the gills of a clown loach that has been through quarantine with lots of meds etc. 8 years later you move and your tank develops ich from the stress. Seems to me it's easier to warn someone that it's always there than give someone the false security it isnt.

In other situations in life we make practical assumptions all the time. Like we teach kids that strangers are dangerous.

Or how about that bathrooms carry lots of bactria. We have the ability to sterilize bathrooms. And yet everyone assumes bathrooms are teeming with bacteria.

I find this to be the same with ich. It's easier for me to tell a family to always assume ich is present. And to avoid stress factors so it doesn't break out. Vs teaching them how to scrape gills etc and put it on a slide to check to make sure it's not present.

People might check a large fish like a do vii or something. But how many people would check the gills of a school of 100 neon tetras?

That being said, while ich is not always present. I'd wager it is in 90% of aquariums. Remember most fish are bought from big chain stores. I think it's best to spend time educating people on how to not stress out their fish because it helps with every disease.

 

[plaamoo]

I would agree that ich is likely present in 90% (+/-)of fish store tanks. I always assume new fish are infested with everything possible. Which is why I quarantine and treat all new fish with flubendazole at least. I haven't seen ich since I began this process, 5 yrs or so. I think too many fishkeepers treat ich improperly with heat, salt, whatever and never completely eradicate the parasite. Don't forget that it's also possible to introduce ich on plants,wood, nets, hands, just about anything that's been in another tank and still damp.

 

[Cory]

The real problem is. That med will work for a while then it'll become resistant to it. If ich was as easy to eradicate as we think it is. It would be done at the farms. As a fish farmer if you never had to worry about it again it would be done in this million dollar industry.

The problem also extends to the myriad of other diseases and parasites that we as hobbyist aren't as aware if.

 

[plaamoo]

The real problem is. That med will work for a while then it'll become resistant to it.

Not sure what you mean here. Flubendazole has killed ich quickly and completely the few times I know that I've treated it. No chance to become resistant. Fish farms are a completely different animal.

 

[Cory]

I'm saying that if someone like a fish farm misuses flubendizole. Ich can build immunities to it. Malachite green used to work just as well as flubendizole 30 years ago.

 

[ShortyKiloGyrl]

I as well have had the random ich outbreak when I hadn't bought a new fish in over a year. It can seem to come from no where. I as well don't have expensive or fancy fish per say so like fishNAbowl I don't quarantine. I do however separate sick fish and treat the whole tank. I separate to give them a less stressful environment to recuperate. But if one fish is sick likely it's passed on to others and all should be treated anyways. I have only had a few outbreaks of ich in my tanks in my almost 20 years with fish and it has never seemed to happen when new fish had been presented. Ich is definitely a controversial illness in the hobby.

 

[hobbyorobsession]

I think that meds are a treatment that cuts twice. It may solve your issue initially but can (like in people) make the organisms more resistant to the complainant. I see ick like duckweed. I feel that in some respect its always present in the substrate once initially exposed to the aquarium. I feel it just sits there and bides its time till conditions are optimal for it to spread. the only solution is quarantine and treat all new additions to your aquarium. ideal we would all do this but in reality almost none of us do. I also feel that all responsibility falls on the hobbyist and not the store that sells the product that is a vector for this illness. They are our tanks and our responsibility to make sure the health of them is optimal.

 

[ShortyKiloGyrl]

How would it randomly come about in a bare bottom tank? Hide out in the bio-filter? That was what happened in my case one of the times.

 

[hobbyorobsession]

I think it can survive in a spore form in any thing I.e water column or filter.

 

[plaamoo]

How would it randomly come about in a bare bottom tank? Hide out in the bio-filter? That was what happened in my case one of the times.

In the gills or sinuses of fish in small numbers and out of sight. Healthy fish combat the infection until stressed.

"I think it can survive in a spore form in any thing I.e water column or filter."

No, it can't.

 

[Madness]

OK, I need to clear this up.  So many are incorrect about the life of ICH.  Like I stated earlier, once ICH is dead or gone it is GONE.  ICH needs a fish host to reproduce.  

A friend of mine is a very well known hobbyist and also very well known for his disease knowledge, diagnosis, and treatment.  Below explains what is ICH, and below that is a very informative video of the truths, myths and treatments of ICH.

Ich is NOT always present in an aquarium, despite many claims to the contrary which is sometimes used to cover up for poor quality stock. I have conducted tests (and read others) where I killed off any Ich (if there was any depending on the control group) and then subjected the fish to many stressors that commonly bring on Ich such as sudden temperature drops with NO resulting Ich outbreaks. It is important to note that the Ich protozoan cannot live outside water and if dried, its cell wall would collapse permanently destroying this single cell parasite so this point also makes migration of Ich from anything other than transport via infected fish or similar water transfer impossible. This also goes for marine Ich (Cryptocaryon) which I almost never had problems with in tanks where all fish were carefully added and there were no previous outbreaks. Test Method: Group 1: I used two aquariums as control aquariums where I started the bio cycle using the fish food method so as to eliminate the slight chance of Ich introduction via a media swap method (one tank was started from empty, the other was bleached prior to start). Fish that had been healthy for many months were used as the control group test fish, and yes this is the weak link, but I feel confident based on baths performed and results that there was no Ich introduction with these fish. Group 2: One more tank that was used was already running and I treated it with several treatments of Aquatronics Super Ich Plus (Malachite Green/ Quinine Hydrochloride; this product is no longer available) to kill potential Ich parasites. Group 3: Four more established aquariums were used where no pre-treatment was used but had ich at a previous time and had been chemically treated, one a mild treatment with Kordon Rid Ich and the other three with Super Ich Plus Group 4: Was a tank that was also established with no pre-treatment but also had a previous Ich infestation that was treated via the heat method. After subjecting these tanks to stressors that included in ALL tanks a drop in temperature from 78 F to 68 F AND heavy bio load stressor fish food and filter removal so as to spike ammonia (approximately 2-3 ppm if my memory serves me correctly, as I did not write this number down);

Results Group 1; No Ich outbreaks. Group 2; No Ich outbreaks.  Group 3; One outbreak in one of the Super Ich groups (none in the other two) and a major outbreak in the Rid Ich group.  Group 4; A minor outbreak of Ich

As we know there are 4 stages in the Cryptocaryons life cycle 1- Trophont-this is the parasitic stage on the fish 2- Protomont-this is where the parasite leaves the fish to encyst on the substrate to reproduce. 3-Tomont- This is the reproductive and longest lived stage 4-Theront- Free swimming looking for a host. The trophonts will mature and leave the fish after 3-7 days. The Protomont will encyst within 24 hours, The Tomont can last up to 72 days(in rare cases). That is the reason ich is so difficult to remove from a system. The Theront will die within 24 hours without a host. The life cycle can be as quick as 7 days, usually 24 days But can go as long as 72 days. 60 days without a fish will eradicate ich 99.9% of the time. I have also read, that if no new strains of ich are added for 11 months, that the parasite will have run it's course and simply does not exist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IopYeLq_ftc