Cichlid advice please

[GreenMan]

I'm planning a new tank and want to have some larger South American cichlids as my centerpiece fish. I currently have two angelfish (breeding pair) in a S.A. community tank with rams, tetras, corys and otos and I'm not happy with the aggression when they are mating and rearing their fry.

I understand that Angelfish are about the least aggressive cichlids and my fish are just great when they're not mating but they mate at least every 2-3 weeks so I have constant stress and angst in my tank which I'm looking to avoid. One fish has already been killed from this.

My question is what fish can I get (South American) that would be attractive, no larger than 6-8" (65 gallon) and more peaceful than Angelfish? I'd like to avoid a single fish of a species because I think it can be cruel to the fish to remove it from it's natural socialization. I'd consider two males or females of a species but they're often difficult to determine sex until they start to mate.

Any ideas or suggestions would be welcome.

 

[lloyd378]

I’ve kept cichlids for over 25 years and I personally can’t think of a cichlid that is more peaceful than an angelfish. ( I actually don’t consider them cichlids as even my fry would tear them apart)

Might I suggest that you remove either the male or female and then replace it with the opposite sex. I am not the most knowledgeable on angels but I’m guessing, like other cichlids that if you had say 3-4 males they would establish a pecking order and then peace would be reestablished.

Just a thought

 

[sir_keith]

My question is what fish can I get (South American) that would be attractive, no larger than 6-8" (65 gallon) and more peaceful than Angelfish?

Wow; tall order, that. The real issue here is that all cichlids, even dwarf cichlids, are aggressive when mating. So it's really a question of degree.

Some Aequidens species are realtively peaceful, but it varies considerably amongst both species and individuals, and I'm not sure that you could reliably call any of them 'more peaceful than angelfish.'

However, you could consider Cleithracara maronii, the Keyhole Cichlid. I kept these years ago, and they are very mellow and lovely.

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Laetacara curviceps are an old favorite that are also pretty mellow, but they are a bit smaller than you're thinking. That said, I'm not sure I'd want an 8' cichlid in a 65 gallon tank anyway.​

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Good luck.

 

[L190]

I never kept one but you can look into festivums

 

[sir_keith]

I never kept one but you can look into festivums

I kept Festivums for years, and they handle like Angels; that is, they are generally peaceful, but become aggressive when breeding (like virtually all cichlids). And although they are 'generally peaceful,' some Festivums can be pretty ornery, especially as they grow (full-grown Festivums are big fish). I would not say that Festivums are 'more peaceful than angelfish' as a general rule, but you might get lucky and end up with a peaceful pair or group.

 

[GreenMan]

I’ve kept cichlids for over 25 years and I personally can’t think of a cichlid that is more peaceful than an angelfish. ( I actually don’t consider them cichlids as even my fry would tear them apart)

Might I suggest that you remove either the male or female and then replace it with the opposite sex. I am not the most knowledgeable on angels but I’m guessing, like other cichlids that if you had say 3-4 males they would establish a pecking order and then peace would be reestablished.

Just a thought

LLoyd378, that's what I was thinking about the Angelfish. They are peaceful except when breeding, then all hell breaks loose and they violently attack the other fish. I hate to break up these guys because they're very compatible with each other and mate like crazy they're also quite beautiful fish. More in my responses below but I'm strongly considering some of the other suggestions below.

 

[GreenMan]

Wow; tall order, that. The real issue here is that all cichlids, even dwarf cichlids, are aggressive when mating. So it's really a question of degree.

Some Aequidens species are realtively peaceful, but it varies considerably amongst both species and individuals, and I'm not sure that you could reliably call any of them 'more peaceful than angelfish.'

However, you could consider Cleithracara maronii, the Keyhole Cichlid. I kept these years ago, and they are very mellow and lovely.

​

Laetacara curviceps are an old favorite that are also pretty mellow, but they are a bit smaller than you're thinking. That said, I'm not sure I'd want an 8' cichlid in a 65 gallon tank anyway.

​

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Great suggestions, the Accra really appeals to me, I'll check it out.

 

[GreenMan]

I kept Festivums for years, and they handle like Angels; that is, they are generally peaceful, but become aggressive when breeding (like virtually all cichlids). And although they are 'generally peaceful,' some Festivums can be pretty ornery, especially as they grow (full-grown Festivums are big fish). I would not say that Festivums are 'more peaceful than angelfish' as a general rule, but you might get lucky and end up with a peaceful pair or group.

Festivums are the fish I wanted to get for my first tank but couldn't find any available so I got the Angelfish. One problem with them is they get kind of large and as sir_keith said I shouldn't get such large fish for a 65. I did notice that PetSolutions.com has festivums for sale at the moment. I have to think hard on this one. Generally, how many festivums do you think I could comfortably keep in a heavily planted 65?

 

[sir_keith]

Festivums are the fish I wanted to get for my first tank but couldn't find any available so I got the Angelfish. One problem with them is they get kind of large and as sir_keith said I shouldn't get such large fish for a 65. I did notice that PetSolutions.com has festivums for sale at the moment. I have to think hard on this one. Generally, how many festivums do you think I could comfortably keep in a heavily planted 65?

Festivums are cute when they're little, and you could probably keep 4-6 small ones in your tank for a while, but as they grow (slowly) you'll have to pare them down. Also, many Festivums wreak havoc with plants, so your tank might not be so 'heavily planted' after a while.

I think if you're looking for fishes that you could grow up and keep in a planted 65 as adults, the Keyholes or Curviceps would be better choices. Or perhaps a pair of Blue Acaras (Andinoacara pulcher): they won't destroy your plants and are not too big for a 65. Live Fish Direct has them in stock at the moment.

 

[GreenMan]

That's good insight of those you mention the Blue Acaras appeal the most. It seems like a small group of 5 would fit my 65 well with the other dwarf cichlids and corys I have.

That said, any thoughts on Discus?

 

[sir_keith]

That said, any thoughts on Discus?

Whole different ballgame. Best you consult the experts on that one (which is not me).

 

[VElderton]

Great discussion ... lot's to consider. I agree Discus are a whole different ball game ... one expert suggested below.

However before you go in that direction you might want to think about what brings you the most pleasure. For me it's Biotope tanks and since I am a cichlid enthusiast they are in 4 of the Biotope tanks I have set-up. I have always thought about how cichlids would be part of a riverine community tank . Here's a picture of one example, my planted SA 75 G Biotope.



Species:

• 5 adult angels,
• 2 Apistogramma agassizii
• Various Tetra groups (Embers, Neons, Colombia [NB: replaced the Beuno Aires because they chomped on the plants too much], Black Skirts, Black Neons, Rummy nose)
• Breeding colony of BN Plecos
• 3 groups of Cories (Salt & Pepper, Albino & Virginae)

There is plenty of cover in this tank. The Angels keep the Tetras schooling which is great and ignore the cats.

Filtration:

• AC 110 with sponge pre-filter
• 2 Marineland 360 canister filters with Biome + Hydroton media
• Large sponge filter
• Weekly water changes.

I have a similar 40 G African river tank with Congo Tetras, Yellow tail Congo Tetras, Butterfuly Cichlids and a breeding group of Kribensis. I am sure there are other examples of cichlids in community tanks.

Given the discussion so far in a 65 G I think you could have Angels with Keyhole or Festivums or Severums along with dwarf cichlids, Cories and BN Plecos.

Surprisingly for my mom I set up Angels with platies for colour/activity and it's really doing well.

I have come to the conclusion is all about groups of fish 5 or more, filtration, aeration, shelter/cover and water changes.

If you do decide at the end of the day you want to go with discus Rick @ Canadian Aqua Farm (CAF) is the local expert around here. I am sure Seattle has similar quality Discus breeders. I have been to Rick's place and seen his operation. CAF is small but highly specialized. Rick breeds/raises and imports beautiful fish and is a great sponsor of BC Aquaria forum and Vancouver Aquaric Hobbyist Society.

His advice is:

1. Pristine water conditions (i.e. close to zero nitrates)
   
2. Higher temperatures (84 - 86 F / 28 - 29 C)
3. High aeration
4. Daily water changes

I have not kept Discus because of (1, 2 & 4) - too much trouble.

Hope this has helped a bit and you decide on something you want and are successful.

 

[clownie]

I have done Discus...even bred them and it's true what VElderton states. They need higher temps and daily water changes are a must if you want to have nice looking ones, over filtration does wonders! You could have them in less pristine conditions but they won't look very good. It's funny they are still so fickle being that they have been domesticated for years. One of the reasons I got over them is because i wanted to heat just the fishroom and not individual tanks. Takes a lot of juice to keep that room at 86-88 degrees.

 

[VElderton]

Thanks for the update ... everything that I posted about Discus came from the source I cited and I really do consider him an expert.

Then I happened across posts from ichthyologist/limnologist Dr. Kevin Novak who brought some pond keeping ideas and his research approach to the aquarium hobby ... it got me thinking maybe if you are looking for Discus to be part of a community tank, not for breeding, just maybe there might be a way to keep them healthy and happy without really high temperatures and continual water changes ... here is a link to some ideas from Dr. Kevin Novak on keeping Discus, I leave it to others on this forum to decide for themselves.

 

[sir_keith]

I leave it to others on this forum to decide for themselves

Awesome post; thanks! It's amazing how we all go off into our own little corners of expertise, and don't realize what's happening elsewhere in the hobby. I had never even heard of anoxic filtration! And I thought koi were just fancy carp that could be kept in any old pond. Wow.

I looked up several of the background articles, and both the chemistry and the biology of these filters make good sense. I'm less sure of the practical aspects concerning filter maintenance and upkeep, however; that is, does this work in a fishroom (as opposed to a pond or research laboratory)? Certainly, it is very techy, and seems to be in early days of development. But who knows, in a few years SeaChem and Fluval may be marketing these things!

Thanks again.

P. S.- Also love your tanks and the concept behind them, as in your earlier post. I really like Biotope tanks, but for Tropheus, that just means a school of conspecifics and some rocks! Loses a bit in the translation. But I am just starting to do a bit with Xenotilapia and Featherfins. Now there are some fishes that might appreciate anoxic filtration!

​

 

[VElderton]

Great post and follow-up. As you know I have a real passion for Tropheus sp. and will definitely connect when I am in the Seattle area in the next few weeks.

I have an aquatic biology degree with decades of teaching, lab and salmonid hatchery experience so I am going to start implementing some of Dr. Novak's ideas and run my own tests with our soft almost pristine Vancouver area water to see if, as he attests, the ideas do translate to the aquarium hobby where volumes are "drops in a bucket" compared to ponds.

It will be a developing process but I have some smaller tanks to begin with which should make it easy to assess changes quicker. The added bonus is that the ideas are real easy DIY projects and not expensive.

For me it will be all about Nitrate reduction between water changes.

 

[sir_keith]

It will be a developing process but I have some smaller tanks to begin with which should make it easy to assess changes quicker.

I have some spare 10's and 20's lying about if you need more tanks to experiment with...

 

[VickiK]

OK. Now I am in love with a NEW FISH? Whatta pretty pretty boy!

 

[sir_keith]

OK. Now I am in love with a NEW FISH? Whatta pretty pretty boy!

Even prettier in person- irradescent! Mine are still little, but when they get to be 4-5" they are awesome. And they make the coolest nests in the sand. Mellow, but demanding in terms of water quality and diet. New direction for me.

 

[dwarfpike]

OP - A blue acara would obliterate your dwarf cichlids, and quite likely eat the oto's and any smaller tetras.

Also, be aware that pretty much all "curviceps" sold locally are actually L. dorsigera, a closely related though different colored species.